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	<title>Comments on: Joan or John? My Answer: Part Three</title>
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	<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/27/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-three/</link>
	<description>By Russell D. Moore. Russell D. Moore serves as the teaching pastor at Highview Baptist Church in Louisville, Ky. In addition, Dr. Moore is the Dean of the School of Theology and Senior Vice President for Academic Administration at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Find sermons and other resources to help Christians engage the culture from a biblical worldview at www.russellmoore.com.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 06:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/27/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-three/#comment-1593</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 14:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@Joe B, in the 4th paragraph you say "if noone was injured by J's sins then there is no nedd for restitution". However, the way i read that, it overlooks that all sins are primarily against God, maker and sustainer of creation and the one and only God.
We can't ever make atonement with God, not by ourselves. The only way that those sins are dealt with is through Christs substitutional atonment. Even our most righteous deeds are "filthy rags", so clearly our own actions have little worth.
I agree with you in that repentance is not going over every patch again. It is a process wrought in us by the Holy Spirit. Some in the past have broken repentance onto 2 categories, Specific Repentance and general repentance.
General repentance is recognising that you are sinful and need to submit to God's way to live.
Specofoc repentance is asking God for forgiveness in a specific area. The number of these is never ending, but identifying your sins and asking God to reorient you is an avenue for growing in the faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joe B, in the 4th paragraph you say &#8220;if noone was injured by J&#8217;s sins then there is no nedd for restitution&#8221;. However, the way i read that, it overlooks that all sins are primarily against God, maker and sustainer of creation and the one and only God.<br />
We can&#8217;t ever make atonement with God, not by ourselves. The only way that those sins are dealt with is through Christs substitutional atonment. Even our most righteous deeds are &#8220;filthy rags&#8221;, so clearly our own actions have little worth.<br />
I agree with you in that repentance is not going over every patch again. It is a process wrought in us by the Holy Spirit. Some in the past have broken repentance onto 2 categories, Specific Repentance and general repentance.<br />
General repentance is recognising that you are sinful and need to submit to God&#8217;s way to live.<br />
Specofoc repentance is asking God for forgiveness in a specific area. The number of these is never ending, but identifying your sins and asking God to reorient you is an avenue for growing in the faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe B</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/27/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-three/#comment-1517</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3516#comment-1517</guid>
		<description>You are overcomplicating the whole thing. 

Repentance is heeding the call of Jesus, following henceforth, and making restitution where justice demands it. Her repentance is just like mine or yours: Change course and follow Jesus.

Who says that people born male must be called by masculine pronouns? Who says that if I have surgically or chemically altered my body that I must tell my daughters? I may have confusedly or even sinfully had some surgery, but the pronouns and pinafores are merely a matter or convention.


Repentance is not going back to replow every acre you ever planted. If nobody was injured by John-Joan's previous sins, then there is no restitution to do. You strongly imply that in order to be "honest" today that I must make "the church" aware of the specific sins of my past...but do you apply this reasoning to other categories of sinners? Do you require the people who have slept three-to-a-bed to disclose that to the church, in the name of honesty? Or is a man who once did it with other men now a liar among the faithful merely because he's repented and came into the fold? 

You have described a person living an orderly and admirable life, even against the tide of whatever drove them to the strange act of "trangederizing." The truth of the whole matter is that John-Joan is exactly what he-she is right now. 

"Honey, your Mom is really a man and there is nothing you or I can do about it. Just thought in fairness to you that I should force you to deal with that fact. Hope that give you closure. Goodnight Sweetheart, see you on Labor Day!"

That might make some pastor or professor feel good about themselves, but does it really have anything whatever to do with the righteousness that is from God through Jesus Christ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are overcomplicating the whole thing. </p>
<p>Repentance is heeding the call of Jesus, following henceforth, and making restitution where justice demands it. Her repentance is just like mine or yours: Change course and follow Jesus.</p>
<p>Who says that people born male must be called by masculine pronouns? Who says that if I have surgically or chemically altered my body that I must tell my daughters? I may have confusedly or even sinfully had some surgery, but the pronouns and pinafores are merely a matter or convention.</p>
<p>Repentance is not going back to replow every acre you ever planted. If nobody was injured by John-Joan&#8217;s previous sins, then there is no restitution to do. You strongly imply that in order to be &#8220;honest&#8221; today that I must make &#8220;the church&#8221; aware of the specific sins of my past&#8230;but do you apply this reasoning to other categories of sinners? Do you require the people who have slept three-to-a-bed to disclose that to the church, in the name of honesty? Or is a man who once did it with other men now a liar among the faithful merely because he&#8217;s repented and came into the fold? </p>
<p>You have described a person living an orderly and admirable life, even against the tide of whatever drove them to the strange act of &#8220;trangederizing.&#8221; The truth of the whole matter is that John-Joan is exactly what he-she is right now. </p>
<p>&#8220;Honey, your Mom is really a man and there is nothing you or I can do about it. Just thought in fairness to you that I should force you to deal with that fact. Hope that give you closure. Goodnight Sweetheart, see you on Labor Day!&#8221;</p>
<p>That might make some pastor or professor feel good about themselves, but does it really have anything whatever to do with the righteousness that is from God through Jesus Christ?</p>
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		<title>By: Moore to the Point by Russell D. Moore</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/27/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-three/#comment-1509</link>
		<dc:creator>Moore to the Point by Russell D. Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3516#comment-1509</guid>
		<description>[...] the question I&#8217;m answering, and the previous three posts (Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3) before you dive in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the question I&#8217;m answering, and the previous three posts (Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3) before you dive in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Blog Patrol (June 2, 2009) &#171; Wayne&#8217;s Random Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/27/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-three/#comment-1479</link>
		<dc:creator>Blog Patrol (June 2, 2009) &#171; Wayne&#8217;s Random Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3516#comment-1479</guid>
		<description>[...] Joan or John? My Answer: Part Three [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Joan or John? My Answer: Part Three [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Russ Moore on How the Gospel Ministers to Transgender People &#124; Christ Community Church</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/27/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-three/#comment-1413</link>
		<dc:creator>Russ Moore on How the Gospel Ministers to Transgender People &#124; Christ Community Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 21:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3516#comment-1413</guid>
		<description>[...] John or Joan? My Answer (Part Three) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] John or Joan? My Answer (Part Three) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Klay Aspinwall</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/27/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-three/#comment-1391</link>
		<dc:creator>Klay Aspinwall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 19:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3516#comment-1391</guid>
		<description>Incredibly complex and interesting! Thank you for some clear and biblical thinking on a very muddled situation.  The constructs of your case, though, naturally lead to the solutions offered, as John already sensed his need to return to his created gender-identity. According to my view of things, this is a demonstration of a genuine work of grace in his life.

If you wanted to further demonstrate your "evil genius," then after the class affirmed the "John" solution, change the question - now Joan doesn't feel inclined to return to John at all, but still expresses a desire to follow Christ as Lord and to unite with the church.  Does anyone then doubt the first view?  

You hinted at this, but a decision on the gender-identity issues would have to be settled before presenting the candidate to the church for baptism and membership.  However, would you ignore the issue and focus on the need for repentance in general, hoping that the Spirit would change his mind post-conversion?  Or, would you make the gender issue key to repentance and conversion as Jesus' seemed to do with wealth in his exchange with the rich, young, ruler?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incredibly complex and interesting! Thank you for some clear and biblical thinking on a very muddled situation.  The constructs of your case, though, naturally lead to the solutions offered, as John already sensed his need to return to his created gender-identity. According to my view of things, this is a demonstration of a genuine work of grace in his life.</p>
<p>If you wanted to further demonstrate your &#8220;evil genius,&#8221; then after the class affirmed the &#8220;John&#8221; solution, change the question - now Joan doesn&#8217;t feel inclined to return to John at all, but still expresses a desire to follow Christ as Lord and to unite with the church.  Does anyone then doubt the first view?  </p>
<p>You hinted at this, but a decision on the gender-identity issues would have to be settled before presenting the candidate to the church for baptism and membership.  However, would you ignore the issue and focus on the need for repentance in general, hoping that the Spirit would change his mind post-conversion?  Or, would you make the gender issue key to repentance and conversion as Jesus&#8217; seemed to do with wealth in his exchange with the rich, young, ruler?</p>
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		<title>By: Christian Ethics: Joan or John? - Delivered By Grace &#124; Theology Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/27/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-three/#comment-1390</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Ethics: Joan or John? - Delivered By Grace &#124; Theology Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 14:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3516#comment-1390</guid>
		<description>[...] Click here for the initial question.  Click here for part one.  Click here for part two.  Click here for part three.   Tags: Christian Ethics, Transgender [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Click here for the initial question.  Click here for part one.  Click here for part two.  Click here for part three.   Tags: Christian Ethics, Transgender [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steven</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/27/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-three/#comment-1386</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 13:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3516#comment-1386</guid>
		<description>Dr. Moore:

I appreciate your thoughts and agree with your conclusions whole-heartedly (especially the conclusion of your friend that you have an evil genius side).  However, in your question you required your students to "[u]se Scripture, Christian theology, and wisdom to demonstrate not just your final decisions, but how you arrived at them."  Your use of Christian theology and wisdom is clear.  I am not aware of any Scriptures dealing with this issue, but, in the next part of your answer, can you provide us with a little more Scriptural reference similar to your answer in part 1?  Thanks.

Steven</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Moore:</p>
<p>I appreciate your thoughts and agree with your conclusions whole-heartedly (especially the conclusion of your friend that you have an evil genius side).  However, in your question you required your students to &#8220;[u]se Scripture, Christian theology, and wisdom to demonstrate not just your final decisions, but how you arrived at them.&#8221;  Your use of Christian theology and wisdom is clear.  I am not aware of any Scriptures dealing with this issue, but, in the next part of your answer, can you provide us with a little more Scriptural reference similar to your answer in part 1?  Thanks.</p>
<p>Steven</p>
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