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	<title>Comments on: Joan or John? My Answer: Part Five</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/</link>
	<description>By Russell D. Moore. Russell D. Moore serves as the teaching pastor at Highview Baptist Church in Louisville, Ky. In addition, Dr. Moore is the Dean of the School of Theology and Senior Vice President for Academic Administration at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Find sermons and other resources to help Christians engage the culture from a biblical worldview at www.russellmoore.com.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Anna Marie Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-15625</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna Marie Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 May 2010 00:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-15625</guid>
		<description>Stopping the hormones is a problem. It will cause the chest to harden and distort(Capsular contracture) and could become very painful.  I have considered this once before and found out that stopping  the hormones will not restore the body to it's original masculine appearance. Once the reservoir (testes) have been removed the brain shuts down the hormone supply. And trying to do it by conventional means is physiologically and psychologically dangerous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stopping the hormones is a problem. It will cause the chest to harden and distort(Capsular contracture) and could become very painful.  I have considered this once before and found out that stopping  the hormones will not restore the body to it&#8217;s original masculine appearance. Once the reservoir (testes) have been removed the brain shuts down the hormone supply. And trying to do it by conventional means is physiologically and psychologically dangerous.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna Marie Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-15621</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna Marie Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 May 2010 23:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-15621</guid>
		<description>My story is very similar to the transsexual story. I've been a post transsexual woman for almost twenty two years now. I was reborn in Christ Jesus in 2001. And I've been sent away by churches more than once. I'm very lonely and depressed because they don't love me like they're supposed to. I'd be really a goner if it wasn't for Jesus and the Holy Spirit holding me up. My life is not a hypothetical one but real.And I have suffered for it. I love Jesus for He loved me first. I've have repented and when I weep I weep on to him. for He is my Lord and master.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My story is very similar to the transsexual story. I&#8217;ve been a post transsexual woman for almost twenty two years now. I was reborn in Christ Jesus in 2001. And I&#8217;ve been sent away by churches more than once. I&#8217;m very lonely and depressed because they don&#8217;t love me like they&#8217;re supposed to. I&#8217;d be really a goner if it wasn&#8217;t for Jesus and the Holy Spirit holding me up. My life is not a hypothetical one but real.And I have suffered for it. I love Jesus for He loved me first. I&#8217;ve have repented and when I weep I weep on to him. for He is my Lord and master.</p>
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		<title>By: Joan Or John? What If a Transgendered Person Comes to Christ? In Your Church? :: Exodus International Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-8067</link>
		<dc:creator>Joan Or John? What If a Transgendered Person Comes to Christ? In Your Church? :: Exodus International Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-8067</guid>
		<description>[...] Russell Moore sounds like a very provocative seminary professor!  I will quote the setup and question he posed to his Christian Ethics class at Southern Seminary.  I will also link to his five part response. I am still considering his response and posting this to simply stir up thought. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Russell Moore sounds like a very provocative seminary professor!  I will quote the setup and question he posed to his Christian Ethics class at Southern Seminary.  I will also link to his five part response. I am still considering his response and posting this to simply stir up thought. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1565</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 14:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1565</guid>
		<description>Dr. Moore,

I give glory to my Father in heaven for your thoughtfulness in these posts. I would like to know if you are going to address the breast augmentation and dating issues? 

I light of those issues, do you believe there is a wise limit to the extent we think about hypothetical situations? Or should we think until we find the fear wall? By which I mean where we are unable to answer any question because we are always asking what if.

Thank you again for these post. May God use them to exalt Jesus Christ and allow others to receive his great gift of salvation.

P.S. - You may consider updating your posts to make it easier to navigate through them for those who would rather just read it on the web. Thank you for the PDF version though.

In Christ by Grace,
Matt Taylor</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Moore,</p>
<p>I give glory to my Father in heaven for your thoughtfulness in these posts. I would like to know if you are going to address the breast augmentation and dating issues? </p>
<p>I light of those issues, do you believe there is a wise limit to the extent we think about hypothetical situations? Or should we think until we find the fear wall? By which I mean where we are unable to answer any question because we are always asking what if.</p>
<p>Thank you again for these post. May God use them to exalt Jesus Christ and allow others to receive his great gift of salvation.</p>
<p>P.S. - You may consider updating your posts to make it easier to navigate through them for those who would rather just read it on the web. Thank you for the PDF version though.</p>
<p>In Christ by Grace,<br />
Matt Taylor</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1541</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1541</guid>
		<description>@Taylor, one of the reasons ex-gay men and women are very cautious about getting married is because many times, such marriages are rushed into and the physical chemistry is not present, and the marriage becomes sexless, which then can lead to a wide variety of sins (think Ted Haggard).  And this is a situation where all the "parts" in both spouses are complimentary and working.  Ex-gays can and do have very fulfilling marriages, but it's a situation that requires a lot of patience, honesty, understanding, and in many cases godly counseling from a pastor and therapist.

Now, in that situation, the only hindrance is one person's past lifestyle and psychological attractions to the same sex.  In John's situation, there would not only likely be that, but also the fact that his physical body has been changed surgically to be that of a female's.  Stopping taking the hormones would likely cause his breasts to reduce in size or disappear (many transgendered individuals don't have to get implants) and his prior masculine frame to re-develop, but his genitalia would still be that of a woman.

Now I'll take it for granted that most Christians see romantic relationships as preludes to marriage.  If John married a woman, would their marriage be able to be sexually fulfilled as all marriages are supposed to be?  In my mind, because of John's past errors, his genitalia is now that of a woman's, as his wife's would be.  The only way both parties could satisfy each other would be to essentially have the kind of sex that lesbians have.... and I'm not sure that just because John is a man spiritually that that kind of sex should be allowed.  But I'm willing to hear others' opinion on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Taylor, one of the reasons ex-gay men and women are very cautious about getting married is because many times, such marriages are rushed into and the physical chemistry is not present, and the marriage becomes sexless, which then can lead to a wide variety of sins (think Ted Haggard).  And this is a situation where all the &#8220;parts&#8221; in both spouses are complimentary and working.  Ex-gays can and do have very fulfilling marriages, but it&#8217;s a situation that requires a lot of patience, honesty, understanding, and in many cases godly counseling from a pastor and therapist.</p>
<p>Now, in that situation, the only hindrance is one person&#8217;s past lifestyle and psychological attractions to the same sex.  In John&#8217;s situation, there would not only likely be that, but also the fact that his physical body has been changed surgically to be that of a female&#8217;s.  Stopping taking the hormones would likely cause his breasts to reduce in size or disappear (many transgendered individuals don&#8217;t have to get implants) and his prior masculine frame to re-develop, but his genitalia would still be that of a woman.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;ll take it for granted that most Christians see romantic relationships as preludes to marriage.  If John married a woman, would their marriage be able to be sexually fulfilled as all marriages are supposed to be?  In my mind, because of John&#8217;s past errors, his genitalia is now that of a woman&#8217;s, as his wife&#8217;s would be.  The only way both parties could satisfy each other would be to essentially have the kind of sex that lesbians have&#8230;. and I&#8217;m not sure that just because John is a man spiritually that that kind of sex should be allowed.  But I&#8217;m willing to hear others&#8217; opinion on this.</p>
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		<title>By: David Bissett</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1536</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bissett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1536</guid>
		<description>Brother, thank you for your series and your clear, biblical thinking.  It is very encouraging to see the gospel at the heart of your counsel.  I am so thankful that students are learning this from you.  

Yours by divine mercy,
db</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother, thank you for your series and your clear, biblical thinking.  It is very encouraging to see the gospel at the heart of your counsel.  I am so thankful that students are learning this from you.  </p>
<p>Yours by divine mercy,<br />
db</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin P. Larson</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1534</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin P. Larson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1534</guid>
		<description>Dr. Moore,

This is exactly why I admire and appreciate you so much.  Such a beautiful series of posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Moore,</p>
<p>This is exactly why I admire and appreciate you so much.  Such a beautiful series of posts.</p>
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		<title>By: Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1528</link>
		<dc:creator>Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1528</guid>
		<description>How would pastor counsel John should he decide to enter a romantic relationship with a woman?

Is the woman in sin?  Is John to abstain for the rest of his life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How would pastor counsel John should he decide to enter a romantic relationship with a woman?</p>
<p>Is the woman in sin?  Is John to abstain for the rest of his life?</p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn Triba</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1516</link>
		<dc:creator>Carolyn Triba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1516</guid>
		<description>What a powerful story this was, just in the fact of how you related it to our sinful state in general.  It is so comforting to know Jesus came to die for all of our sin and all sin is evil and vile.  

Dr. Moore, keep on speaking to our hearts.  We as sinners so need to hear the Gospel truth. I am so thankful for how God is working in your life and mine.

I will pray for your ministry after I send this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a powerful story this was, just in the fact of how you related it to our sinful state in general.  It is so comforting to know Jesus came to die for all of our sin and all sin is evil and vile.  </p>
<p>Dr. Moore, keep on speaking to our hearts.  We as sinners so need to hear the Gospel truth. I am so thankful for how God is working in your life and mine.</p>
<p>I will pray for your ministry after I send this.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1514</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 17:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1514</guid>
		<description>@John D. Tilson, I think your situation is very different.  A hermaphrodite, like a person born with an extra limb, is someone who is definitely born with a physical flaw.  And you're correct, sometimes that flaw is corrected prematurely, because in some cases assigning a gender at birth for a child born with that condition really comes down to guesswork.  Many born hermaphrodites do feel later in life that the gender they were assigned was the wrong one, and they often have the hormone levels and internal genitalia to prove it.

In fact, Lili Elbe (1882-1931), who is often held up by transgendered activists as the first person to undergo sex reassignment surgery, was found to have rudimentary ovaries and other female organs during her autopsy after her death.  So when she said she felt like a woman inside, she was correct.  That situation is very different, I think, from the one Dr. Moore brought up.

Surely it is not John's fault that he felt like a woman.  We live in a fallen world and our minds and hearts are plagued by sin.  The solution to our psychological problems, though, is not to change what God has created to suit our whims, but to seek His will no matter how difficult it is.  I can relate that to my own struggles with homosexuality.  Relationships with men feel totally natural to me and being celibate is very difficult, and support from Christians is unfortunately often hard to find.  But the fact of the matter remains that what God has deemed sin is sin.  I can't take matters into my own hands and try to explain away the clear teachings of Scripture.  If I did, or someone like John did, what would stop everyone from doing that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John D. Tilson, I think your situation is very different.  A hermaphrodite, like a person born with an extra limb, is someone who is definitely born with a physical flaw.  And you&#8217;re correct, sometimes that flaw is corrected prematurely, because in some cases assigning a gender at birth for a child born with that condition really comes down to guesswork.  Many born hermaphrodites do feel later in life that the gender they were assigned was the wrong one, and they often have the hormone levels and internal genitalia to prove it.</p>
<p>In fact, Lili Elbe (1882-1931), who is often held up by transgendered activists as the first person to undergo sex reassignment surgery, was found to have rudimentary ovaries and other female organs during her autopsy after her death.  So when she said she felt like a woman inside, she was correct.  That situation is very different, I think, from the one Dr. Moore brought up.</p>
<p>Surely it is not John&#8217;s fault that he felt like a woman.  We live in a fallen world and our minds and hearts are plagued by sin.  The solution to our psychological problems, though, is not to change what God has created to suit our whims, but to seek His will no matter how difficult it is.  I can relate that to my own struggles with homosexuality.  Relationships with men feel totally natural to me and being celibate is very difficult, and support from Christians is unfortunately often hard to find.  But the fact of the matter remains that what God has deemed sin is sin.  I can&#8217;t take matters into my own hands and try to explain away the clear teachings of Scripture.  If I did, or someone like John did, what would stop everyone from doing that?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1507</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1507</guid>
		<description>Dr. Moore, 

Your answer to this very difficult question was very helpful.  We need theologians addressing new issues such as these.  I have another difficult question that I was wondering if you could address.  What about people who are born with both male and female reproductive organs?  I have had multiple people ask me this question, and, frankly, I'm at a loss as to how to deal with it.  How would you answer this question?  I know you're a busy man, but if you could address this I think it would be very helpful to a lot of us who are trying to give answers to the difficult points non-believers are raising.  Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Moore, </p>
<p>Your answer to this very difficult question was very helpful.  We need theologians addressing new issues such as these.  I have another difficult question that I was wondering if you could address.  What about people who are born with both male and female reproductive organs?  I have had multiple people ask me this question, and, frankly, I&#8217;m at a loss as to how to deal with it.  How would you answer this question?  I know you&#8217;re a busy man, but if you could address this I think it would be very helpful to a lot of us who are trying to give answers to the difficult points non-believers are raising.  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Kiwi and an Emu.</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1466</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiwi and an Emu.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1466</guid>
		<description>[...] John or Joan? My Answer: Part 5. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] John or Joan? My Answer: Part 5. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1454</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 20:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1454</guid>
		<description>@John D. Tilson, 
I surrender!  I misread a couple lines which caused me to assume what I shouldn't have.  Apologies.

I still wonder what the answer would be if John/Joan were  not feeling repentance over the transgender operation.  There will be those you know.  In which case you will have to deal with my original argument.  

I will try try to read more carefully in the future.  Thank you Bob!
John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John D. Tilson,<br />
I surrender!  I misread a couple lines which caused me to assume what I shouldn&#8217;t have.  Apologies.</p>
<p>I still wonder what the answer would be if John/Joan were  not feeling repentance over the transgender operation.  There will be those you know.  In which case you will have to deal with my original argument.  </p>
<p>I will try try to read more carefully in the future.  Thank you Bob!<br />
John</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1428</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 16:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1428</guid>
		<description>@John D. Tilson, 
I don't understand why you would ask "who made (Russ Moore) God?" Dr. Moore has offered a compassionate and Christ-exalting response to the situation recognized by the subject Joan/John, i.e., having rejected God's gender assignment. I suspect Dr. Moore's counsel would have been different if Joan/John was arguing your point, that (s)he had simply corrected a mistake God made in the womb; although I suspect that counsel would be just as compassionate and Christ-exalting. But the very fact that Joan/John is experiencing repentance over the rebellion make your assertion pointless, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John D. Tilson,<br />
I don&#8217;t understand why you would ask &#8220;who made (Russ Moore) God?&#8221; Dr. Moore has offered a compassionate and Christ-exalting response to the situation recognized by the subject Joan/John, i.e., having rejected God&#8217;s gender assignment. I suspect Dr. Moore&#8217;s counsel would have been different if Joan/John was arguing your point, that (s)he had simply corrected a mistake God made in the womb; although I suspect that counsel would be just as compassionate and Christ-exalting. But the very fact that Joan/John is experiencing repentance over the rebellion make your assertion pointless, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: John D. Tilson</title>
		<link>http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/05/29/joan-or-john-my-answer-part-five/#comment-1427</link>
		<dc:creator>John D. Tilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 14:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=3520#comment-1427</guid>
		<description>Dr. Moore,

I would approach it from the perspective of "Who made you God".
In life we see everything from Siamese twins to epilepsy cured my appropriate surgery.  Why do you presume that a person's gender is not such a physical mistake of nature?
Do I know anyone in this condition?  Tragically so.  A friend shortly after birth was experiencing physical suffering.  X-rays and such revealed the confusion of gender in the mixing of gender plumbing.  The doctors tell the parents they must choose what they want the child to be.  They have already told their friends that the child is a girl.  So she was surgically made a girl.
By her teen years my friend knows that in her heart she is a man.  She detests being a woman.  Her features are manly as are her muscles, bearing, walk and tendencies.  
I admit this may not be the exact scenario you had in mind, but the principle in fact is.  We do not think for a moment that we are going against what God created when we surgically cure other physical alimentes but we do if it pertains to sex assignment.  I merely suggest that mistakes of nature pertaining may be corrected whether the mistakes be having three legs or mistaken gender.

Sincerely 
John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Moore,</p>
<p>I would approach it from the perspective of &#8220;Who made you God&#8221;.<br />
In life we see everything from Siamese twins to epilepsy cured my appropriate surgery.  Why do you presume that a person&#8217;s gender is not such a physical mistake of nature?<br />
Do I know anyone in this condition?  Tragically so.  A friend shortly after birth was experiencing physical suffering.  X-rays and such revealed the confusion of gender in the mixing of gender plumbing.  The doctors tell the parents they must choose what they want the child to be.  They have already told their friends that the child is a girl.  So she was surgically made a girl.<br />
By her teen years my friend knows that in her heart she is a man.  She detests being a woman.  Her features are manly as are her muscles, bearing, walk and tendencies.<br />
I admit this may not be the exact scenario you had in mind, but the principle in fact is.  We do not think for a moment that we are going against what God created when we surgically cure other physical alimentes but we do if it pertains to sex assignment.  I merely suggest that mistakes of nature pertaining may be corrected whether the mistakes be having three legs or mistaken gender.</p>
<p>Sincerely<br />
John</p>
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