Comments on: Swine Flu and the Common Cup http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/ By Russell D. Moore. Russell D. Moore serves as the teaching pastor at Highview Baptist Church in Louisville, Ky. In addition, Dr. Moore is the Dean of the School of Theology and Senior Vice President for Academic Administration at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Find sermons and other resources to help Christians engage the culture from a biblical worldview at www.russellmoore.com. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:56:26 +0000 By: Ben Wright http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4996 Ben Wright Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:09:59 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4996 How would you advocate to your fellow pastors that one church with seven locations should pull this off? How would you advocate to your fellow pastors that one church with seven locations should pull this off?

]]> By: Melinda http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4993 Melinda Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:23:23 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4993 We've landed somewhere in the middle at our church. We share the Lord's Supper once a month, following the morning service, as part of a shared noon meal. After we eat together, the pastor will either read the 1 Corinthians passage or one of the crucifixion passages. The bread is passed around each table, and everyone tears off a piece. Then someone at each table pours and serves the juice for everyone seated at that table. While we don't share the same cup, it is definitely a family experience. And we love it. We’ve landed somewhere in the middle at our church. We share the Lord’s Supper once a month, following the morning service, as part of a shared noon meal. After we eat together, the pastor will either read the 1 Corinthians passage or one of the crucifixion passages. The bread is passed around each table, and everyone tears off a piece. Then someone at each table pours and serves the juice for everyone seated at that table. While we don’t share the same cup, it is definitely a family experience. And we love it.

]]> By: James West http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4987 James West Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:06:56 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4987 What a false issue! Are we less family when we gather at a common meal to share at Thanksgiving? Do we all pass around a turkey leg to share a bite? With the knowledge we currently have of infectious diseases, would anyone advise a gathering of people to share their germs with others just to demonstrate they love one another? The writer suggests that to do so during a swine-flu epidemic is not wise. So now we have someone who decides when a practice is wise and when it is not. Why not leave the matter to be decided by common sense and good science? I faced this issue on the mission field where a group insisted upon the common cup. I noticed that on Communion Sunday people broke their normal seating pattern to avoid sitting next to others with the common cold and having to drink after them. Were they being unloving, or were they simply using common sense? I have participated in the Lord's Supper hundreds of times without ever feeling I was slighting my fellow Christians because I didn't drink from the same cup. We should not focus on form but upon substance. Far more important is the issue of self-examination and the removal of hindrances to fellowship among believers before we partake. These are the issues that may result in some "sleeping" (dying) rather than not using a common cup. What a false issue! Are we less family when we gather at a common meal to share at Thanksgiving? Do we all pass around a turkey leg to share a bite? With the knowledge we currently have of infectious diseases, would anyone advise a gathering of people to share their germs with others just to demonstrate they love one another? The writer suggests that to do so during a swine-flu epidemic is not wise. So now we have someone who decides when a practice is wise and when it is not. Why not leave the matter to be decided by common sense and good science? I faced this issue on the mission field where a group insisted upon the common cup. I noticed that on Communion Sunday people broke their normal seating pattern to avoid sitting next to others with the common cold and having to drink after them. Were they being unloving, or were they simply using common sense? I have participated in the Lord’s Supper hundreds of times without ever feeling I was slighting my fellow Christians because I didn’t drink from the same cup. We should not focus on form but upon substance. Far more important is the issue of self-examination and the removal of hindrances to fellowship among believers before we partake. These are the issues that may result in some “sleeping” (dying) rather than not using a common cup.

]]> By: Russell Moore: Swine Flu and the Common Cup « The Lighthearted Calvinist http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4602 Russell Moore: Swine Flu and the Common Cup « The Lighthearted Calvinist Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:16:36 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4602 [...] 2, 2009 by oldbutweary Dr. Russell Moore of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has posted on the Lord’s Supper and current public health concerns and his post makes some interesting points.  First, in the interest of full disclosure, here is my [...] [...] 2, 2009 by oldbutweary Dr. Russell Moore of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has posted on the Lord’s Supper and current public health concerns and his post makes some interesting points.  First, in the interest of full disclosure, here is my [...]

]]> By: SEAN HALL http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4481 SEAN HALL Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:25:32 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4481 Here's a novel idea...what if God is bigger than the pig flu? What if we just came to his table for all the right reasons, passed the cup and trusted that he could handle things from there? In the spirit of dying to my sanctimonious nature, I just took a hunk out of my tongue and will add nothing more Here’s a novel idea…what if God is bigger than the pig flu? What if we just came to his table for all the right reasons, passed the cup and trusted that he could handle things from there? In the spirit of dying to my sanctimonious nature, I just took a hunk out of my tongue and will add nothing more

]]> By: Rick Patrick http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4370 Rick Patrick Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:12:07 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4370 Before my conversion to Baptist life, I grew up Episcopalian. I remember kneeling at the altar as an ancient woman with bright lipstick next to me drank. The minister barely wiped the cup with his cloth between sips. Talk about gross! Of course, it was also real wine and a rule required that it all be consumed. (When attendance was light, they called the men of the church to come back up and help drink it so the Rector would not get sloshed!) No thank you, Russ. Having been set free from the common cup, I'll never go back to Egypt. Before my conversion to Baptist life, I grew up Episcopalian. I remember kneeling at the altar as an ancient woman with bright lipstick next to me drank. The minister barely wiped the cup with his cloth between sips. Talk about gross! Of course, it was also real wine and a rule required that it all be consumed. (When attendance was light, they called the men of the church to come back up and help drink it so the Rector would not get sloshed!) No thank you, Russ. Having been set free from the common cup, I’ll never go back to Egypt.

]]> By: Kendall Adams http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4367 Kendall Adams Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:26:50 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4367 Dr. Moore, You said, "I’ll call the congregations to drink the wine, together, passing along a common cup." 1. You mentioned wine, do you use wine in your communion? 2. How does the one cup work out in your church? Do you have one cup that everyone drinks out of? Do you pass it down each row? Or do they come forward? How could John MacArthur's church pass one cup? 3. How often do you have the Lord's Supper? Dr. Moore,

You said, “I’ll call the congregations to drink the wine, together, passing along a common cup.”

1. You mentioned wine, do you use wine in your communion?
2. How does the one cup work out in your church? Do you have one cup that everyone drinks out of? Do you pass it down each row? Or do they come forward? How could John MacArthur’s church pass one cup?
3. How often do you have the Lord’s Supper?

]]> By: Ryan Szrama http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4366 Ryan Szrama Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:22:40 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4366 I was reminded of this blog post today while reading Dr. Haykin's edited collection of Jonathan Edwards' letters in A Sweet Flame. Edwards provides commentary on Corinthians to the effect that Paul only commends the expulsion of the immoral man and the false teachers, but never the general church membership that was led astray by their antics. Instead, he commends to the whole church again a better practice of the Lord Supper, and he himself regards those who were even engaging in divisive factions as beloved brethren... he really highlights the charity extended at a common table over the breaking of bread. Makes me wonder what sort of differences members in our churches might lay aside if they truly saw the meal as a time to actually break bread with one another. The quote: "But as soon as they are brought off from following these false apostles any longer, he embraces them without further ado, with all the love and tenderness of a father; burying all their censoriousness, and schisms, and disorders, at the Lord's Supper, as well as their ill treatment of him, the extraordinary messenger of Christ to them." (Anecdotally, even an unbelieving friend has recommended to me in the past that I work out differences with a competitor over the breaking of bread.) (Also, thanks for the heads up, Ross!) I was reminded of this blog post today while reading Dr. Haykin’s edited collection of Jonathan Edwards’ letters in A Sweet Flame. Edwards provides commentary on Corinthians to the effect that Paul only commends the expulsion of the immoral man and the false teachers, but never the general church membership that was led astray by their antics. Instead, he commends to the whole church again a better practice of the Lord Supper, and he himself regards those who were even engaging in divisive factions as beloved brethren… he really highlights the charity extended at a common table over the breaking of bread.

Makes me wonder what sort of differences members in our churches might lay aside if they truly saw the meal as a time to actually break bread with one another. The quote:

“But as soon as they are brought off from following these false apostles any longer, he embraces them without further ado, with all the love and tenderness of a father; burying all their censoriousness, and schisms, and disorders, at the Lord’s Supper, as well as their ill treatment of him, the extraordinary messenger of Christ to them.”

(Anecdotally, even an unbelieving friend has recommended to me in the past that I work out differences with a competitor over the breaking of bread.)

(Also, thanks for the heads up, Ross!)

]]> By: Russ Woodbridge http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4357 Russ Woodbridge Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:18:05 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4357 I have lived in Germany, Austria and now Ukraine. It is common practice to use a common loaf of bread and cup in Baptist churches. Most churches even pass around a white cloth to wipe the edge of the cup for the germ conscience people. I wonder if the individual cup and bread reflects American individuality as much as the idea of catching germs. Just a thought. Russell Woodbridge I have lived in Germany, Austria and now Ukraine. It is common practice to use a common loaf of bread and cup in Baptist churches. Most churches even pass around a white cloth to wipe the edge of the cup for the germ conscience people. I wonder if the individual cup and bread reflects American individuality as much as the idea of catching germs. Just a thought.

Russell Woodbridge

]]> By: Ross Clark http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4335 Ross Clark Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:26:13 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4335 Ryan #4 What Sojourn do (dipping the bread in the wine) is known in the Anglican church as 'intinction', and we do the same thing (with graoe juice) in the Vineyard church I worship in. I have always seen that as a satisfactory workround. Ryan #4

What Sojourn do (dipping the bread in the wine) is known in the Anglican church as ‘intinction’, and we do the same thing (with graoe juice) in the Vineyard church I worship in. I have always seen that as a satisfactory workround.

]]> By: Russell D. Moore http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4325 Russell D. Moore Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:14:42 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4325 @Mark, This is one of the greatest things I've ever read in a long, long time. Makes me so glad to be in Christ. I love and appreciate y'all. @Mark, This is one of the greatest things I’ve ever read in a long, long time. Makes me so glad to be in Christ. I love and appreciate y’all.

]]> By: Russell D. Moore http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4323 Russell D. Moore Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:13:28 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4323 @Bob Johnson, Bob, I wrote about the Lord's Supper issue more fully in the book "Four Views on the Lord's Supper" (Zondervan, edited by John Armstrong). I also preached on it here: http://www.russellmoore.com/2007/09/05/disposable-communion-sets-and-other-signs-of-the-end-times-preaching-the-gospel-through-the-lords-supper/ and here: http://www.russellmoore.com/2007/08/23/jesus-take-the-meal-why-were-afraid-of-the-lords-table/ and here: http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/08/18/signs-of-the-kingdom-how-the-spirit-reigns-down-acts-242-47/ @Bob Johnson, Bob, I wrote about the Lord’s Supper issue more fully in the book “Four Views on the Lord’s Supper” (Zondervan, edited by John Armstrong). I also preached on it here:

http://www.russellmoore.com/2007/09/05/disposable-communion-sets-and-other-signs-of-the-end-times-preaching-the-gospel-through-the-lords-supper/

and here:

http://www.russellmoore.com/2007/08/23/jesus-take-the-meal-why-were-afraid-of-the-lords-table/

and here:

http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/08/18/signs-of-the-kingdom-how-the-spirit-reigns-down-acts-242-47/

]]> By: Mark http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4320 Mark Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:06:35 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4320 Dr. Moore, Thanks for your ministry and your powerful writing. I was shaped as a student under your teaching in seminary on the Lord's Supper. I smiled when I read this latest blog. We now live in a small village in West Africa that was 100% Muslim for the past 600 years and heavily involved in animism for countless generations before that. Now, on Tuesday nights, a group of around 30 new believers gather at a house for church. Each week I am served, by one of these believers, the Lord's Supper. They hand me some reddish colored "water" out of an old jar along with a hunk of bread torn off with hands that have never met a bottle of sanitizer! As they do this, the person handing out the elements explains in quite dramatic fashion the price Jesus paid and how this changes us. We don't have a swine flu problem yet but we do have yellow fever and about 4000 other diseases floating around (not to mention what's in that "water"). Yet no one ever complains and it's not just because they're used to sharing more than we are. For them, this meal is about family. This is not something tagged on at the end of a sermon once a quarter, this is something important. This is a reminder that they are no longer walking in darkness, this is a reminder that though most of their families and friends have rejected them, they are a part of a new family. This is a reminder of a great banquet that is awaiting us at the marriage supper of the Lamb! Dr. Moore,

Thanks for your ministry and your powerful writing. I was shaped as a student under your teaching in seminary on the Lord’s Supper. I smiled when I read this latest blog.

We now live in a small village in West Africa that was 100% Muslim for the past 600 years and heavily involved in animism for countless generations before that.

Now, on Tuesday nights, a group of around 30 new believers gather at a house for church. Each week I am served, by one of these believers, the Lord’s Supper.

They hand me some reddish colored “water” out of an old jar along with a hunk of bread torn off with hands that have never met a bottle of sanitizer!

As they do this, the person handing out the elements explains in quite dramatic fashion the price Jesus paid and how this changes us.

We don’t have a swine flu problem yet but we do have yellow fever and about 4000 other diseases floating around (not to mention what’s in that “water”). Yet no one ever complains and it’s not just because they’re used to sharing more than we are. For them, this meal is about family. This is not something tagged on at the end of a sermon once a quarter, this is something important. This is a reminder that they are no longer walking in darkness, this is a reminder that though most of their families and friends have rejected them, they are a part of a new family. This is a reminder of a great banquet that is awaiting us at the marriage supper of the Lamb!

]]> By: The Common-ness Of The Lord’s Supper « Growing In Grace http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4319 The Common-ness Of The Lord’s Supper « Growing In Grace Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:13:52 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4319 [...] Read the whole thing. [...] [...] Read the whole thing. [...]

]]> By: Ryan Szrama http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4318 Ryan Szrama Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:26:37 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4318 Related article from a few years ago paints this debate as nothing new. Apparently the question of shared sickness hearkens back to the 19th century. http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/01/local/me-beliefs1 Two pertinent quotes: "The chances of getting sick are less than talking after the [service] with someone who has a cold." Loving, the microbiologist, said the risk of infection is reduced because the chalice is wiped after each sip, the alcohol in the wine can kill germs and, unlike ceramic cups, the silver and gold used in most chalices don't harbor microbes. So... I vote bring back the shared cup, the red wine, and the pretty chalice if necessary. I've visited Sojourn before, and they semi-solve this problem by having partakers dip their bread in the wine instead of everyone touching the wine cup and putting it to their lips. Related article from a few years ago paints this debate as nothing new. Apparently the question of shared sickness hearkens back to the 19th century.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/01/local/me-beliefs1

Two pertinent quotes:

“The chances of getting sick are less than talking after the [service] with someone who has a cold.”

Loving, the microbiologist, said the risk of infection is reduced because the chalice is wiped after each sip, the alcohol in the wine can kill germs and, unlike ceramic cups, the silver and gold used in most chalices don’t harbor microbes.

So… I vote bring back the shared cup, the red wine, and the pretty chalice if necessary. I’ve visited Sojourn before, and they semi-solve this problem by having partakers dip their bread in the wine instead of everyone touching the wine cup and putting it to their lips.

]]> By: Andy http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4317 Andy Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:25:21 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4317 My church actually has both options available on the offering table, common cup & loaf, or the wee individual portions. I normally went with the commons, but this summer started going with the individual portions, specifically because of hygiene. There are a lot of emergent-y types at my church, and I'm not sure when the last time they had a shower, let alone washed their hands. (I may be indicting myself under Matt 15:2 right now.) Anyway, I ended up getting the swine flu anyway, from an unexpected source: my boss at work. It was no fun, but now that I've had it and survived, I guess I can go back to the petri dish that is the common communion cup. My church actually has both options available on the offering table, common cup & loaf, or the wee individual portions. I normally went with the commons, but this summer started going with the individual portions, specifically because of hygiene. There are a lot of emergent-y types at my church, and I’m not sure when the last time they had a shower, let alone washed their hands. (I may be indicting myself under Matt 15:2 right now.)

Anyway, I ended up getting the swine flu anyway, from an unexpected source: my boss at work. It was no fun, but now that I’ve had it and survived, I guess I can go back to the petri dish that is the common communion cup.

]]> By: Bob Johnson http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4316 Bob Johnson Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:22:40 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4316 I'm intrigued and would like to know more. Can you post resources (perhaps audio sermons you've preached on this topic)? I’m intrigued and would like to know more. Can you post resources (perhaps audio sermons you’ve preached on this topic)?

]]> By: Jacob Allee http://www.russellmoore.com/2009/10/20/swine-flu-and-the-common-cup/#comment-4314 Jacob Allee Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:08:50 +0000 http://www.russellmoore.com/?p=4287#comment-4314 I have often felt that the Lord's Supper in our churches today is far from what it was meant to be. After all, it's certainly not much of a supper to have a minute cracker and shotglass of grape juice. Of course I'm a bad Southern Baptist because it seems to me that wine would be more faithful to what Jesus actually did as well if we are really going for what was originally instituted. If it doesn't matter what they drank and ate then why do we not have rootbeer and cheeto's for the Lord's Supper? Sure alcoholism is around and so we don't want to cause someone to stumble, etc., but I think these are things worth talking about more. I'm not sure I see the necessity of a common cup, but I certainly agree that the Lord's supper should be a more family oriented full on meal where we celebrate the Lord's sacrifice. I have often felt that the Lord’s Supper in our churches today is far from what it was meant to be. After all, it’s certainly not much of a supper to have a minute cracker and shotglass of grape juice. Of course I’m a bad Southern Baptist because it seems to me that wine would be more faithful to what Jesus actually did as well if we are really going for what was originally instituted. If it doesn’t matter what they drank and ate then why do we not have rootbeer and cheeto’s for the Lord’s Supper? Sure alcoholism is around and so we don’t want to cause someone to stumble, etc., but I think these are things worth talking about more.

I’m not sure I see the necessity of a common cup, but I certainly agree that the Lord’s supper should be a more family oriented full on meal where we celebrate the Lord’s sacrifice.

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