To start - let me declare my bias: I am a 3rd-generation Southern Baptist, a Reformed Evangelical, and I have been joyfully married for 28 years to a “charismatic pentecostal,” reared in the Assemblies of God. My husband and I are both currently active in a Reformed congregation, of the Presbyterian denomination.

Marriage is unchanging faithfulness within change…as God’s grace is everlasting and unrelenting despite our failings and circumstances. If we — as God’s People, and as covenant, marriage partners, focus on our First Love — we can find joyful, permanent union despite theological differences and the changes that are inevitable in this life. This does not need to diminish our passionate love of Christ or theology or doctrinal practices…

Many (including the Rev. Billy Graham and his wife) have found fulfilling marriage and Christian mission at separate congregations / denominations, although this is difficult.

You will face some unique challenges — as you face critical faith milestones for your children — especially Baptism and Holy Communion. If you cannot come to agreement or compromise on these fundamental beliefs — you are setting yourselves up for heartache. If you can accept differences and changes within the context of your First Love for Christ — and your covenant faithfulness to one another — you can find love, joy and challenge as you grow together in your faith and marriage.

If you make the choice to marry — never second-guess, keep sight of your First Love — and find congregation(s) that will support you in fulfilling your Calling to each other and to God’s Kingdom.

God Bless…

As to Ephesians 5:22, that passage does teach the husband’s spiritual leadership in the home. Paul says in v. 24 for wives to “submit in everything to their husbands.” Everything would include spirituality wouldn’t it? Paul’s argument is clear in v. 23: “For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.”

I’m not here to pick a fight, either. Again, I ask your forgiveness for my misinterpretation of your comment about Calvinism. And concerning Ephesians 5:22-24, if you don’t agree with what I’ve written, please explain your views about this passage to me (which you claim to get from the Bible–I want the Bible to enlighten me, so please enlighten me with it about this if need be). Grace to you, brother.

Having been in both Assemblies of God and Reformed settings, I’m convinced of the Reformed position. However, despite excesses on either the hyper-Calvinist or hyper-Arminian wings, a traditional Arminian/Wesleyan and a traditional Calvinist are both going to stress grace and perseverance (and yes, I realize I’m oversimplifying). I say this having grown up with two of the godliest parents I know (Arminian/Pentecostal) who rooted me in the love and grace of Christ, along with encouraging me to persevere in Him. While there are substantive differences between Aimee’s and Calvin’s positions here, I’m sure they could agree on that!

Bringing in the practical side is a great point, one I can expand on a little further.

Beyond the simple conscious perspective there is a very real practical concern. Most churches, at least ones you would probably want to attend and become involved in, require formal membership before you can serve. Formal membership typically require agreement with a doctrinal statement and doctrinal statements often include the church’s stance on spiritual gifts.

So a more conservative reformed church will probably not want continuationists as members, leaving Aimee with the choice of sinning by lying about her convictions as a continuationist or sinning by not using her spiritual gifts to serve in the local church.

Flip it around and Calvin has a problem. If they attend a more charismatic church, he will either have to lie about his conviction as a cesassionist or not agree with their doctrinal statement, not be a member, and therefore not service.

Lets you think the quick answer to this is just to find a “Sovereign Grace” church and be done with it, up until very recently they were clear in their doctrinal statement that cessionists were welcome to visit but were not welcome to serve in the church.

I searched for the article on their site but it appears it has been taken down. Maybe cessionists are now welcome to join and fully serve in the “Sovereign Grace” churches? I would definitely investigate before walking the isle and come out the other side unable to serve.

You’re right; I do genuinely believe that people so different in their theological belief systems should not marry. An unequal yoke is much more than saved-unsaved. It also applies theologically–a “strong” Christian shouldn’t unequally yoke with a “weaker” Christian. Nor, in my opinion, should a Calvinist yoke with an Arminian because of those differences. For me at least, such a vast theological difference would amount to an unequal yoke. (Then again, I feel called to full-time pastoral ministry, so I have to be particularly careful in terms of whom I would consider for marriage. … Pastors are, after all, held to a stricter judgment, James 3:1.)

And about Calvinism: I was merely trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. I don’t agree with all of Calvinism (particularly infant baptism and some of Calvin’s OT explanations), but I do agree with TULIP. Calvinism is such a loaded word, I didn’t know exactly what you meant. I did read what you wrote, which is why I asked what form or part or aspect of Calvinism to which you were referring. I am not seeking to pick a fight, either, brother, I was merely seeking a more full view of what you meant by some of your wording in your first post.

@Jordon, didn’t you see the verse I quoted above how everyone is to submit to one another? Let’s take the Bible seriously. The verse you quoted says nothing of spiritual leadership. You imported that. If you’re going to quote Scripture at least quote a verse that says what you want it to say. “The plain meaning of Scripture” is not spiritual leadership in that verse.

As for Calvinism, no I’m not talking about hypercalvinism. Again, read what I wrote. A short study of supersessionism gets at what I am saying. And I did say Calvnism has some smart things too. Be slow to speak, please, when you haven’t read what I wrote. I’m not here to pick a fight.

We got married. We’ve been married for nearly a year now, and while it has been somewhat difficult for me, it has been MORE difficult for my wife, because of practical reasons. There are plenty of people who have “on paper” disagreements but practically work things out every day.

I do not regret my decision to this day. My wife, on the other hand, has pointed out several times that this is the case because I do not have to submit to her leadership.. because she is supposed to submit to my leadership therein lies the most significant of our problems.

She doesn’t know how to practically “follow” someone who doesn’t necessarily even BELIEVE what she holds most dear next to the cross. If she wants to exercise her gifts will I mock, jeer, deconstruct, or even stare quizzically-minded? I did at first. Why? Because in my “camp” and yours unfortunately there is a lot of cynicism and skepticism that is laced with our wonderful “biblical” and systematic theology.

After much repentance, and definitely not enough prayer, I decided to read good Reformed charismatic resources on the issue; not just the usual “firing squad” of resources on Benny, T.D. Jakes, or the like; but GOOD presentations by people many would not even know held to what is often called a “3rd Wave” understanding of the gifts. Most of them you would agree on in many areas already. Men like:

John Piper, Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem, CJ Mahaney, Josh Harris, Adrian Warnock…etc. These men are no lightweights. In order to be a good student of my wife, I have taken these guys on head first. And, much to my surprise, most of their exegesis and testimonies are remarkably encouraging. That’s not to say you capitulate..

Leadership is not about “lordship”, it’s about self-sacrifice. If you choose to marry Aimee you will inherently sacrifice some things; one of which will be (initially or forever) the “continuity” of a same/similar partnership. Instead you will have a “hybrid” marriage of sorts that will bring with it great challenges (like on the spot OT marriages) and great rewards as you are able to minister to a much greater breadth of people in the body.

One question in particular you will have to ask yourself before you make the decision to proceed into marriage is “Can you self-sacrificially (not in convictions but in methods) lay down your “dreams” of a Reformed cessationist church and be OPEN but cautious (NOT Cautious but hardly open) to a Reformed charismatic congregation. And Aimee must ask herself whether she can follow someone who may not lead her further in what she holds dearest (now or never).

And after reading this article by Dr. Mohler: http://www.albertmohler.com/2005/07/12/a-call-for-theological-triage-and-christian-maturity/

Then make it a point and a lifestyle to put aside whatever is tertiary in you both and see if you can press on together in love, self-sacrifice, and MERCY. Don’t take your eyes off the cross. Please. If you do, you will end up in such squalor and mess that you will wish you had read “This Momentary Marriage” by John Piper before you got into it.

While we live in the fields, and long for the streams, and flowers, and trees, we must not forget that in this world there will be cow patties. But go there only to deal with the mess in each of you, and remember that that is not all there is to this life. There are still streams, and flowers, and trees. But are the cow patties in each of your lives too much for either of you to wade through each day of the rest of your lives? By God’s grace you can do it, but it will present the most challenging and rewarding times of your life. Go in grace. ~Similar Situation

Interesting thought about the persecution. I still don’t think it would be laughable. There is a significant difference between sharing a foxhole with someone during trouble times and sharing a bed with someone in marriage. Besides, if we were experiencing persecution in American we would probably heed Paul’s admonition in 1 Cor 7:26 and Calvin would “remain as he is,” a single because of the present distress (persecution).

I also think your anecdote, while humorous, is quite off the mark. Marriage is a one flesh, extremely intimate relationship that presses people together revealing their flaws, ie sin. I don’t think anyone who thinks they shouldn’t rush head long into marriage without careful consideration because of their differences is in anyway suggesting that we not share Christ and the hope we have in Him with someone who is suffering and in need of saving because of their religious affiliation.

Another issue is to figure out which doctrines really matter to both of them. For example, I have an opinion on eschatology but it’s not at all a big deal to me. I could easily go to a church or marry someone with a different view. But some staunch dispensationalists, for example, would not consider doing so. Some issues simply matter more to certain people (tongues, for example).

Thank you for sharing this with us.

I believe that the eternal security of the believer is foundational for the gospel. If someone does not believe that, I don’t think they believe the same gospel as I, and thus we’d be unequally yoked.

Most importantly, Calvin and Aimee need to seek the counsel of their elders. What is their advice? Are they willing to follow it, even if it’s hard?

I think the husband really does have to lead - in love of course.

I tried to follow the example of my godly mother. When she married my dad way back when, she was Lutheran and he was Catholic. Back in the day, he couldn’t even receive communion after their marriage. But one day when she was praying about it she saw a vision of Mary. Mary didn’t speak to her, just smiled and made her feel that it was okay and she soon took instructions to become Catholic and served, loved and worshiped God as a happy Catholic. She never regretted following her husband’s spiritual leading.

For those of you who like to read ahead, we broke off the relationship.

The reasons were multifaceted and, like much of this discussion, complicated and nuanced but in the end obvious for me at least and came down to a couple key issues, one of which I’ll share here, praying in tongues.

My girl friend was adamant that his was a critical component of her faith and I would need to embrace it and support her in it if not eventually practice it myself. So I started off by searching for what scriptures speak to the topic. I’ve been a serious student of the Word for about a decade, but I’m only in my 30’s so I might have missed it or overlooked it based on my upbringing. Based on her conviction it was all throughout scripture and obvious but I didn’t find any clear scriptural guidelines around the practice of praying in tongues. 1 Cor 14:14 is the only explicit mention of praying in tongues and is a simple statement, not a command and doesn’t include any detailed instruction. Our primary instruction on prayer comes from Jesus in the response to the disciples question. “Lord, teach us to pray…” would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to instruct his disciples on the use of the heavenly language, but instead we have an example of earthly language.

So I asked her because I wanted her to, from scripture, show me clearly how she came up with her doctrinal stance that there was a way to pray in tongues. At the time I was genuinely curious as I recognize my very limited understanding of God through his Word and didn’t want to miss something God commands or expects. If I could be convinced from scripture to seek the experience I would have no problem seeking the experience.

Huge red flag for me. Her defense was “prove to me that praying in tongues is condemned in scripture.” She said that my perspective that praying in tongues wasn’t in scripture was as much a doctrine as her position that said it was.

So for us it boiled down to a discussion about the way we establish Christian doctrine (practice) in our personal lives and in the church.

We establish doctrine by clear command, instruction, simple inference, with clear examples, not by a single passing mention in a single verse that has questionable context and interpretation. The onus was not on me to show that scripture condemned the practice, but for her to show clear command, instruction or inference with examples from scripture, something this is impossible to do with praying in tongues.

As a side effect of this investigation it came to light that the specific practice of praying in tongues had radically different modes, methods, and meanings depending on who I studied or asked. Once I scratched the surface I found out that she had one understand, her local AoG church and pastor had a different understanding, and the broader AoG denomination had yet another understanding (who prays: human spirit or Holy Spirit; to whom is prayer offered: God or H/S; language used: heavenly language or groanings etc).

If the AoG can’t get it straight, how am I supposed to seek this gifting (never mind the fact that I didn’t have to seek for any of my other spiritual gifts and saw scripture as just expecting me to obediently use them in the equipping of Christ’s church)? It seemed to me a lot like 1 Cor 15:29 where there are some who have established doctrine around a brief mention of a practice and when you dig in you find opinion and variance as to the mode, meaning, and reasons because its a human invention with human understandings and not something clearly commanded by God through His Word for us to practice in the NT Church.

As a side note, through my study of spiritual gifts and doctrines I became very convicted of the sin of not using my gift of teaching in the local church and by doing so was robbing the local Body of Christ–causing it harm and reducing its witness in the world. I repented and am now by God’s grace leading a small group.

So my encouragement to Calvin is make sure you dig in, ask lots of questions, think critically, define your terms (not all the words you two use have the same meanings) and be sensitive to change first through your study of God’s word, don’t try or expect her to change first, or at all, in which case, like me you have your answer.

(And I agree, we shouldn’t assume our denominations to always be right.)

The Bible clearly teaches complementarianism … which includes the husband’s role in a marriage as the spiritual leader of the household (which includes his wife).

And none of the traditional five points of Calvinism (TULIP) are radically off-base … Do you refer to hyper-calvinism?

Dear Brother,

Only because I have read so many responses so far that suggested trying “Sovereign Grace” churches do I ask you: How would this help? The Sovereign Grace family (which I love!) affirms both the eternal security of the believer, and the continuation of sign gifts. These are the very issues that seem to define this couple’s disagreement. It seems that attending a Sovereign Grace church would appease neither of them!

Rejoicing in Our Christ,

ADD

I don’t know how to reply to your last paragraph. Apart from the context, I would just automatically assume you’re being sarcastic. However, it seems that you genuinely believe this. Probably one of the most unnuanced takes on this complicated issue.

1. It is ok to marry a fellow believer in another denomination IF the two believers in question agree about fundamental doctrines, among which are predestination.
2. If you marry, you should go to the same church. (An interesting possibility would be a Sovereign Grace church–a mix of Baptist soteriology with Pentecostal charisma.)
3. It would be unsubmissive, but she should not be in a situation where she would have to be in a church she disagrees with.
4. If you marry and then have children, you should raise them in one church, preferably the husband’s.

Yes, marriage would produce theological strife. Your beliefs are so fundamentally different–five point Calvinist and five point Arminian–that for the sake of both of your individual future children, you should not marry. Theological strife would show itself all too easily. A 5-point Calvinist should not marry a 5-point Arminian if for no other sake than for the sake of the children and for the sake of marital health.

“February 15, 2008

The following is an edited transcription of the audio. (From Ask John Piper)

Should I date someone whose theology is different?

Don’t ask the minimalistic question. If you only want to know how little you have to agree on together in order to move forward, then you’re asking the wrong question.

There should be a robust and common enthusiasm and joy about the gospel. You should also have a similar understanding of the gospel so that you’re not always tricking each other by your words. You want to make sure that you have the same definitions for the words that you use.

So start at the center, and want the most.

It is difficult to rear your children and to worship together if you disagree on the center of the gospel and on the big issues of God’s sovereignty. This involves the centrality of the cross, the substitutionary atonement, the inerrancy of the Scriptures, and the role of God in sin and suffering. You have to be able to nurture each other in ways that don’t offend the other, and that flows from your view of the sovereignty of God.

So if one of you believes that God is not sovereign over the troubles of your life and over the salvation of the lost, but the other one does, then it is going to be very difficult for you in worship, devotion, and child rearing.

I would be very hesitant, frankly, to move forward in a relationship where there are deeply rooted differences about God’s sovereignty, the gospel, or the inerrancy of Scripture. In regards to more marginal things, however, I wouldn’t make them a criteria.”

It’s a very tough one.

“Don’t take all your counselors from the same pool.”

Where is that in scripture?

Grace & Peace,
W.

Sadly, reminds me of this joke (cribbed from here… http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/359)… and when issues like the one outlined in the letter come up, this is - again sadly - how the world sees us:

“I was walking along when I saw a man standing on a bridge getting ready to jump. I tried to find a reason to dissuade him, and asked:
Are you religious? Yes, he replied. Great, so am I.
Christian or Buddhist? Christian, he said.
Episcopalian or Baptist? Baptist, he responded.
Baptist Church of God, or Baptist Church of the Lord? Baptist Church of God.
Are you Original Baptist Church of God or Reformed Baptist Church of God? Reformed Baptist Church of God.
Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation 1879 or Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation 1915? Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation 1915 was the answer.
Die heretic scum, I said. And pushed him off.”

I will leave most of the issues that you mentioned alone, as others have addressed them. However I strongly believe that you need to reach common ground concerning the church you attend. Whether you go to one spouse’s church and not the other, or even decide together to look into attending an entirely different church–an excellent idea, by the way–I urge you to make a decision. In the long run I do not believe you will find it either fair or comfortable to switch churches every (other) week.

Primarily, marriage is a picture of Christ and the church and if the two cannot agree on what that picture looks like, then they will have two different views of marriage. There are dozens of other issues that will arise in marriage that will very likely be different as well: suffering, raising children, chruch membership, divorce, and the list goes on and on.

I would highly discourage entering a marriage with someone who has a different understanding of these things.

I also wouldn’t leave it at that. I’m currently counseling a young couple in a similar situation by helping each of them develop a Biblical worldview, so that they will be on the same page when entering the marriage covenant.

The husband going to one church and the wife to another is just going to lead to a multitude of problems.

For example, Calvary claims to be neutral on the question of Calvinism/Arminianism. But any honest observer who knows the issues has to admit that they come down pretty thoroughly Arminian. Every Biblical text is exegeted from a purely Arminian viewpoint; all the classical Arminian responses to Romans 9 are listed, but none of the Calvinist understandings of Matthew 23:37; John 3:16 is mustered in support of one but John 6:44 is not taken in support of the other; Acts 7:51 is used to argue against Calvinism’s “I” when it actually has nothing to do with it; and so on.

If we honestly admit our differences, we can work through them; but sweeping them under the rug does not help anybody.

I think if both Aimee and Calvin are willing to submit to Scripture then they will come to one mind on the issues. (Eph 4:11-14). (Aimee will end up becoming a Calvinist and Calvin will reject the belief that the bible teaches that certain gifts have ceased:)

So I think they should both do some serious study and dialogue of why they each believe what they believe and be willing to be corrected by the other if the other’s position is more faithful to Scripture.

I think it is a bad idea to just avoid your current differences - don’t you both believe that the Scriptures are clear on these issues? (if not then you have no cause for fuss about the others belief).

So the question for both of you is: “Are you both willing to change your views if Scripture teaches that you are wrong. Are you both open to that possibility?”

Calvin: you should read some Wayne Grudem, Sam Storms and listen to John Piper’s sermon series on miraculous gifts at DG website.

Aimee: you should ask Calvin which are the best books to read on Calvinism.

My husband and I shared the same faith when we were married. He’s still a faithful Mormon, but I converted to Christianity. The differences and vast and alarming, but our marriage is doing well despite the fact religion is very important to both of us.

I just have a few thoughts–

Absolutely, it is TOUGH if you go to two different churches (but Christians with so much in common might find a common church to worship and fellowship with).

It is very important for each person to speak to others (especially any children which may come along) with respect for the other’s perspective–even if they think it’s totally wrong. The best way to do this is to understand why they believe what they do. Could you answer the question, “Why does he/she believe that?” with anything worthwhile?

Because I married my husband believing in good faith our children would be raised Mormon, and I respect my husband’s leadership, they will be raised Mormon (aren’t you glad this isn’t your issue?). But, (here’s the point) he knows that when my children come up to me with questions, I will answer them honestly and thoroughly. A similar approach might be valuable in a situation like the letter entails.

I know that many people on both sides of the issue feel very strongly about the question of Calvinism and Arminianism, but it just doesn’t seem like such a huge stumbling block to me. They are both Christians. They are both faithful and passionate.

A good test for just how dividing the debate might be, is to ask if either believes the other isn’t actually saved. If one does believe the other isn’t saved, then I could see it being a huge issue. But if both feel the other is saved, even if they are wrong on this point, then it shouldn’t be devastating. Why not just share perspectives, maybe the occasional respectful debate, explain both views to any children (they’ll have to choose for themselves eventually anyways), and get on with loving God and each other?

I think you’d have a much simpler time answering your questions if 1) you didn’t hold to denominationalism so rigidly and 2) you didn’t view the husband as the “spiritual leader,” which I’m still searching to find in Scripture, though I was brought up always thinking it was there (seminary training helps you slice through what is denominational subcultural assumptions over-layed on a text and what is actually in the Scripture).

You are both disciples of Jesus, not a bride as a disciple of a husband. Jesus is always the spiritual leader in Scripture. He doesn’t get mediated to a wife through a husband when you get married. That would be a demotion and gross abuse of the priesthood of the believer.

You will both grow in your theology as you grow in your lives. Calvin may learn that tongues is alive and well and Aimee may learn that some of Calvinism is pretty smart (though some of it is pretty off-base and supersessionist too ;). And you will BOTH grow (not just her conforming to this world by conforming to her husband)… in some ways you’ll agree more in other ways you’ll agree less (even in issues you haven’t even considered doctrinally yet).

Give yourself space for change. It will happen. And when it’s healthy and smart, it is good. And let Jesus guide you and not some denomination and traditional pressures.

If you guys are equals (in spirit, emotional health, etc) and love each other, then get married. I wish my wife and I could spend time with you for then we’d get to the real heart and meaning of these questions that you won’t get here.

And I’d get advice from other places besides here. Southern Baptist deans are pretty one-sided (and even the fact that your question was raised here shows that Calvin already has the leg-up on getting his way with an answer–though he may not attend that). In a multitude of counselors, says the proverbs, there is safety. Don’t take all your counselors from the same pool.

I think you make a lot of wonderful points Michelle and I agree with you.

At the same time, however, I can’t help but to think of some friends that I have. I know a married couple that did not start out on the same page as far as denomination is concerned. He is non-denominational Christian and she was a Catholic. They tell me that the used to have all kinds of fights about religion. As a way to prove her husband wrong, she went to the Bible and dug into scripture. As a result of her study, she started to see the short comings of Catholicism. As she learned more and more about what was in the Bible, she renounced Catholicism and as a result incurred her family’s spurn; mostly from her mother. Also, in addition to all of this, she also had an important influence on her sister in which she later renounced Catholicism as well.

I’m not trying to say it was all easy but I can see how God made good come from it. I suppose what I’m trying to say is that even if a couple from different denominations decide to unite in marriage, God can still work in such matters as He does in all things and He can make wonderful things come of it.

Just thought I would share this testimony to the all sufficient love and grace of God.

May it all be for His glory,
Wade

I’d simply ask Aimee, “Are you willing to follow Calvin and submit to his leadership in this area. Are you willing and able to fit in with him?” That is the biblical calling of wife.

If you can, and are willing to study what he believes and grow toward him, I think the marriage, all else being rightly ordered, will work. If not, then based on what I read in Scripture and what I’ve seen lived out in the lives of friends, you’re headed for trouble. And adding children will intensify the situation exponentially.

A couple that is striving for oneness must be united in this central area of worship and church membership.

Given this, it is wisest and best to marry w/in one’s own denomination (an exception: you are burning w/ lust in a land where there are very few fish in the sea.)

Calvin and Aimmee, love is patient and love is kind. Sometimes Christians marry because their “love” is impatient and blind. I believe in God’s providence, as you walk in wisdom, He will bring someone more theologically and ecclesioligically fitting to be yoked, happier with and to better fruitiply with.

Will God pour out blessing on marriages that are not denominatinoally? Absolutely. God pours out his blessing on all kinds of things Christians do imperfectly (evangelism, church plants, parenting, etc.; but it doesn’t make it right, best or wisest.

Likewise, Aimee and Calvin both express a love for Jesus Christ and a desire to follow him. Spiritually, it sounds like they have a lot of common ground.

If they attend a Southern Baptist megachurch, they’ll hear the same kind of music that they’d hear at an Assemblies of God megachurch; and the messages may not be too terribly different.