Wow - disagreeing with one’s husband undermines his authority?

Why?

Respectful disagreement between adults modeled by the pastor and his wife should strengthen marriages.

Why must the pastor’s wife pretend not to think deeply about theology? Why must she never express a contrary view?

Sure, if he is happy to be teased about his taste in clothing but takes offense at her disagreeing with him on matters of theology, that is an issue but if they can disagree in a mature and respectful way, I’d see nothing but benefit for the congregation?

We’ve been examining these issues together since we started dating but there is the issue now of what do we do if we are asked to lead a small group in our church - or, as the denomination terms it, if HE is asked to lead the small group and I am asked to “help” him.

How would that look - esp., if he is considered the leader and I am not but I don’t think that should be the case. Do we serve in a counter-cultural way? Would I be in faith to serve in that way.

In Ephesians 5:22-25, “Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord…to their husbands in everything (obviously there being no immorality or abusiveness going on). Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church”.

Eph. 5:33,…”each of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband”. (whether she agrees with him or not).

To Adam, God said, “Because you listened to your wife (and not Me) and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, Cursed…..”.

Love (him) and respect! (her). If each of these imperatives is carried out, by the man and wife, it seems to me there can be mutual disagreement between the two. And where this is the case, if he loves her to the extent required by Christ, and she respects him to the same extent, this could be modelled to the church and result in enlightenment for all concerned

Where either one, or both, cannot-or will not-relate together as directed there will be hurt, dissapointment, and in a congregation confusion, disrespect, and lack of unity.

Seems this young man has other ethical problems besides his wife.

This young man writes…

“while both men and women are gifted for service in the church, only men as qualified by Scripture are called to serve in the office of pastor.”

Was wondering…

In the Bible - How is a man “”Qualified by Scripture” to be a pastor?
In the Bible - Who was called to serve in “The Office of Pastor?”
In the Bible - Where is the “Title” and “Position” of todays pastor?
In the Bible - What congregations are “Led” by a “Senior Pastor?”
In the Bible - Why is NO ONE called pastor?

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice

{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

My denomination does not accept women as Deacons, yet they are allowed to make and deliver meals for ill congregation members. But it seemed that the initial job in Acts for deacons was distribution of food. Does something seem odd?

Womanly Dominion by Mark Chanski
Manly Dominion by Mark Chanski
Equal Yet Different by Alexander Strauch

Actually, I think the existence of an issue that (if it does not drastically change) will inevitably require church discipline is, in fact, disqualifying.

I agree, if the question is how he should act. However, the question he asks made it quite clear he has intention of trying to persuade his wife of the truth. He is in open defiance of both God’s Word and his own beliefs, and is neither repenting nor seeking counsel on his actions. He’s merely worried if his sin will hurt his career.

In other words, you have a wise and insightful answer to a question no one has asked.

It’s a matter of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If in marriage the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church and the woman is to respect and obey her husband as the church does to Christ then that exact same model is demonstrated in the leadership of the church.

The husband in this matter who happens to also be a pastor is the spiritual leader and in this case his spiritual guidance and leadership is biblical and his wife should follow that leadership. Her choice to disobey Scripture as he leads should not disqualify his call as pastor but if her persistence leads to others in the church being misled about Biblical truth then church discipline should be started.

A few thoughts on your comment. First - you didn’t really address the scriptural argument of complementarianism vs egalitarianism, but rather it appears you have assumed that people are “cherry picking” scripture and leaving “context” behind. I am guessing based on your comment that you believe that those who hold to a complementarian view are doing just this - but you haven’t explained how they are doing that with the Scripture that teach on this issue of women in leadership.

It seems that in your question, “How many men on here can honestly say they have not learned anything about their walk with God from something that their mother, wife, or girlfriend said or pointed out? ” you are implying that learning something about God from a woman is similar to a woman “teaching” a man. The issue of the role of women in the church - even more specifically, the role of women in positions of authority over men in a church, is very different than say, a man learning something about God via a female.

It appears you may be making light of the issue of women and “teaching” - although I am not sure if that was your intent.

The question here is, can a man and his wife have opposing views on women in leadership. It seems that you think this is a minor issue - and you choose to focus on the more “major” things - like following after God, “wherever he leads”. But, this is an issue that has to be addressed, and, its not minor. Following after God is good, but, that statement doesn’t really address the issue.That statement just seems to imply that this issue is some sort of sidebar to really following after God - whatever that truly means.

I believe the answer is yes - it will be a huge problem if this man goes into the pastorate - and therefore he shouldn’t. By suggesting to have people come and teach the various views, it appears you are implying that holding to either view is acceptable, which it is not. Any pastor needs to be clear about his view on the role of women in leadership - and the view that the church holds as well. A pastor and his wife should not be in disagreement on this issue.

It is important that while we agree that his wife’s egalitarian view is wrong, we still encourage the pastor to dig and try to understand why his wife is believing what she is. Its almost like thinking about how to contextualize the gospel. Its difficult to do so - when you don’t understand the belief system and framework of the people you are trying to reach. Similarly, it is important for this husband to understand his wife and her belief on this issue - so he can more effectively present and teach/reach her with the truth of the Scripture.

I do agree with you that many women (including most I have met) tend to be egalitarian more for “emotional” reasons than anything else . Sometimes because of a misunderstanding of the scripture and what egalitarianism actually is, and sometimes because of past history that really may have nothing to do with Scripture at all. As you suggest, I think that it is incredibly helpful for the husband to try and understand what some of these issues may be for his wife - as he seeks lovingly understand his wife and address this issue with her from Scripture.

I am a bit concerned at your statement, “Who cares if either of you doesn’t fit a complementarian/egalitarian mold? There are plenty of variations in both systems. Follow Scripture.” I don’t think the issue is about following some sort of “mold”, but rather, what does the word say about the role of women in leadership in the church? Yes - there is flexibility in discussion about how roles look in the home- but this issue is not “gray” as it appears you are making it. Its black and white. Whether women should be allowed to hold positions of authority over men in the church must be addressed clearly and concisely from Scripture. I don’t see room for variation on this issue.

I am not so sure I agree with your statement: “A woman is not egalitarian because of how she FEELS. It is because she is not willing to submit to the truth of God’s Word. In other words, she is being rebellious.”

Many women are egalitarian because of feelings (and lack of scriptural study and review of the issue of women in leadership) and many other women are egalitarian because they feel they have studied the topic, and come to the conclusion from scripture that their position is warranted. I don’t agree with their view, however, it feels like you are making a rather large assumption that a woman (or women in general) are egalitarian because they are not willing to submit to the truth of God’s word. People who hold various views of scripture that we may not agree with often don’t believe they themselves are intentionally being rebellious by holding their position. I just wanted to comment on your statement because I think this issue is something to process through with egalitarian women, and not just assume we know the heart and reasons why a woman may hold to that position.

This man also asks if this theological difference with his wife will be confusing to a congregation. No, it won’t. Hypocrisy is easy to identify in another person. Even kids can do it. People won’t be confused. They will just sort of gradually lose respect for his teaching as they realize it’s not practiced at home.

I have prayed that God would draw near to this couple. I’m counting on the blood of Christ for forgiveness for my errors in theological thinking and my errors in my own marriage. May God make his name great through this dilemma.

How she arrived at her conclusions is irrelevant. Truth is the truth, ignoring it is ignoring it. Attempting to warp it for your purposes (whatever reason you have for them) is wrong. Whether she is doin g it purposefully or because of past abuse does not change whether it is right or wrong.

That quote brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for it.

I have an interesting question: How many men on here can honestly say they have not learned anything about their walk with God from something that their mother, wife, or girlfriend said or pointed out? Maybe during that conversation with the opposite sex it sparked an idea, a point of view, or enlightenment about scripture. Is that not learning? Hence being taught?

Most learning happens in life, not in a church. Sermons have there place, but I’ve learned more by the challenge of the world. In the grand scheme of things it’s called ‘Majoring in Minors’. If you choose to spin your wheels on this subject so be it. For me and my house I choose to go with God where ever He leads.

That is a deliberate mis-representation of the arguments here. Sadly not always of the way it is put into practice by the sinful people who may abuse the Word, but still not true.

the problem is that both views are not sound. If his wife believed in theistic evolution, should he then lend credence to that by inviting people who hold that view? Why stop at issues non-essential to salvation then? Let’s get a “Christian” universalist in there too, really get the debate fired up. We cannot accommodate those who spread dissension (and rejection of your husband’s leadership, when your husband is theoretically leading the church is most certainly sowing dissension) among the faithful.

Titus 1:10-11 10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.

Respectfully, I believe you are both missing the point. The young man did not ask how to correct the situation so that he could go into ministry, he asserted that there was nothing wrong with the situation, and that he wondered if it would hurt his career. The above advice is a great way to deal with the situation, but it’s an answer to a question no one asked.

As for the Bible thumping… Sin is sin. Rejection of the truth is rejection of the truth. Lies are lies. As Orwell said. We’ve sunken to a point where the first duty of intelligent men is pointing out the obvious. In the end, why his wife is believing these lies and going against God’s clearly stated truth is only relevant in the context of how to help her believe the truth and repent. But the young man starts with the base assumption that the situation is acceptable. It is not, and that is why many of us here have been pointing that fact out.

I have a number of friends who are devout Pagans, worshipping the “gods” of Nature. Several of them chose that path after being abused by those who claimed to be Christians. But in the end, why they choose to reject the truth does not matter. It is important to know in terms of how to minister to them effectively, but when they stand before God at the end of days “But people were mean to me!” is not a valid excuse for worshipping demons. Similarly, even though this woman may be covered by Jesus’ sacrifice, she will still account for her actions in this life and “But some men were real jerks to me!” will not be a valid excuse for rejecting the parts of God’s Word she disliked.

Your reply is the best in the whole bunch. You actually grasp the importance of digging down to the root and the whys, and addressing that…. unlike the rest who heard the word “egalitarian” and immediately began thumping their Bibles and declaring “This is SIN and you are a SINFUL HUSBAND if you don’t correct your wife.”

Thank you.

“Men are complimentarian because we feel the great responsibility of being the head of household…”

“Women are egalitarian because they feel very capable in a position of leadership…”

The thoughts of many in the replys to this post are most discouraging.

Kenny, twice you define labels by how the man or woman FEELS. This is so typical of our culture that has been feminized by the feminists. We live in an emotion driven culture.

What should define our roles is not the culture nor how we FEEL about things. Our roles are defined by God as He has communicated them through His Word.

It is clear from God’s Word that men are the leaders, protectors, providers, heads of families. Women are the helpmeets and keepers of the home. There is much in that and it isn’t a caveman with a club standing over his barefoot and pregnant wife.

Men are the leaders and heads of families because God SAYS that is their role, not because he feels a responsibility. It is there whether he FEELS it or not.

A woman is not egalitarian because of how she FEELS. It is because she is not willing to submit to the truth of God’s Word. In other words, she is being rebellious.

Until we understand that even as believers we continually fight and rebel against God and need to run to Him for the grace and strength to obey that which we do not want to obey (because we don’t FEEL like it) then we will continue do these slippery slopes.

The original question by a pastor with a wife who is “egalitarian” should not be in the ministry period. His own family is not in order and hence - it would disqualify him for ministry according to God’s Word. A hard truth but a truth none the less no matter how we FEEL about it.

You are correct in that I overstated and interposed my personal view into the case. My apologies, been leading a study on Titus and so my brain has been in that realm. You are also correct in pinting out that the pastor in question will not be able to provide council to married folks without either compromising his beliefs or being a hypocrite. “The Bible teachs this and you should do it, even though I do not.”

The problem lies in whether or not she is actually wrong. From what I read in your letter to Dr. Moore, I’m understanding that your wife rejects the idea of male leadership in marriage?

The bible is clear that male leadership is representative of Christ’s leadership or headship of the church. Jesus and I don’t get together and come up with a consensus, He says how it is and it’s up to me to follow Him.

It will be just about impossible to tell young people at your church about marriage and leadership if your wife goes behind you telling a different story (and she will, it’s her conviction that you are wrong and she is right on this matter).

The problem sometimes is we don’t want to think we actually have to accept scripture on matters in our present time. We are quick to avoid conflict and disappointment. The biggest thing you can do on this and I am sure you already are is to pray. But you have to be real with God on this and accept that you aren’t qualified for leadership, not because you aren’t leadership material or somehow you aren’t a good leader in your home but because you are in a situation that more readily demonstrates the importance of the marriage covenant than it does leadership. Lead as you may, it is still an issue at home.

It’s not a good example, but *Hosea’s wife didn’t follow scripture either yet God still thought him godly and used him. God may use you in a different way to demonstrate the love a husband ought to have for his wife even if she is in error.

*this is not to suggest anything unseemly

“Among others, a principal cause of these mischiefs is the great and common neglect of the governors of families, in the discharge of that duty which they owe to God for the souls that are under their charge, especially in teaching them the doctrine of Christianity. Families are societies that must be sanctified to God as well as Churches; and the governors of families have as true a charge of the souls that are in them, as pastors have of the Churches. But, alas, how little is this considered or regarded! But while negligent ministers are (deservedly) cast out of their places, the negligent masters of families take themselves to be almost blameless. They… promise to teach their children the doctrine of the gospel, and bring them up in the nurture of the Lord, but they easily promise, and easily break it. Thereby they educate their children for the world and the flesh although they have renounced these and dedicated them to God. This covenant-breaking with God, and betraying the souls of their children to the devil, must lie heavy on them here or hereafter. They beget children, and keep families, merely for the world and the flesh, but little consider the greatness of the charge that is committed to them, and what it is to bring up a child for God, and govern a family as a sanctified society.

“O how sweetly and successfully the work of God would go on, if we would just all join together in our several places to promote it! Men would not so often run off to be preachers (uncalled), but would find that part of the kingdom’s work that belongs to them to be enough, and not only enough, but the best that they can be employed in. Especially women should be careful of this duty; because as they spend the most time with their children, and have early and frequent opportunities to instruct them. This is the principal service they can do to God in this world, being restrained from more public work. And doubtless many excellent magistrates have been sent into the Commonwealth, and many excellent pastors into the Church, and many precious saints to heaven, through the happy preparations of a holy education, and perhaps by a woman that thought herself useless and unserviceable to the Church.”

While I understand about agreeing to disagree (on some issues) and that most disagreements in the home can be resolved through good communication and submission to God and His Word….this issue has direct impact on daily interactions and decision making. It seems like a big deal to me…

I don’t know of any marriage (even really good, solid ones) where eventually there is not some decision that requires submission and giving in to the leadership of another.

So–when this happens–what do you do?

It seems like, from what you wrote, that your wife’s perspective wins out in your home if “neither leads the home but decisions are made by consensus.” I wasn’t sure if you were saying that is what happens or just what she wants to happen?

If this is how things work practically in your home, but then you are teaching something different from the pulpit…I do think that will be very confusing to those whom you pastor.
I also think it will be very very confusing to your children (if God blesses you with them someday or you have them now).

And–if you are teaching one thing, but she is communicating a different conviction about gender roles as she interacts with the congregation…that would be very very confusing too. So–is she supposed to stay silent about this issue?

I know that a husband and wife don’t always have to agree on every single thing…but this issue has daily, life-shifting implications…maybe it would be good to prayerfully commit to studying this area together and prayerfully ask God to unite your convictions.

If it’s mainly in theory, but not something she is strongly emotionally committed to, you’ll probably be fine. For example: I love theology, have a position on most issues, and lead in my church in a variety of ways. I agree with the pastors on almost all theological issues, but we don’t have to agree 100% on something for me to defer to their leadership and avoid creating controversy - and no one will ever know we differ. Get any group of thoughtful people together and it will be hard to agree on EVERYTHING.

If it’s in practice, or something she’s emotionally committed to - find out why. Abuse in her past? Growing up around extreme patriarchy? There is a lot more to this issue than simply calling it sin, as some comments have implied. Many times a woman passionate about egalitarianism is a woman who has experienced unbiblical extremes on the other side and feels denigrated as a woman. In that case, love her and model for her the positive aspects of biblical complementarianism.

Finally: be biblical. Study Scripture with her, and if something’s traditionally “complementarian” but isn’t in Scripture, ditch it. Don’t be committed to a label. Who cares if either of you doesn’t fit a complementarian/egalitarian mold? There are plenty of variations in both systems. Follow Scripture.

The issue here is about contradictory ways of living. This man is content to live in his home in an egalitarian relationship. He said he would have it no other way. Well, it would seem that he would place himself or his wife under a severe burden to either (a) pastor an egalitarian church or (b) force his egalitarian wife to submit in a complementarian church. So, I’m not sure he can, in full faith, lead and counsel others in a complementarian way, while living an egalitarian marriage.

If she persists in both believing and teaching against the Scriptures, there will be an extent to which she will undermine his ministry. (I don’t know that that would mean he shouldn’t become a pastor — surely it would be best to try to resolve this first.) But he must not enter the ministry until he is ready to call her sin, sin and call her to repentance, or he will have the same unwillingness to confront sin in his flock as pastor. It’s a matter of honoring God or man.

“He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?” - 1 Timothy 3:4-5

I would urge you to thoroughly discuss and resolve this issue before marrying someone who doesn’t share your beliefs on this very important subject. If you are called to be a pastor, marrying a woman who disagrees with you about gender roles could close the door on ministry opportunities as well as create a lot of strife and family conflict. See John Piper’s article on questions to ask when preparing for marriage: http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/questions-to-ask-when-preparing-for-marriage

Coming from a former feminist type background and egalitarian (although I didn’t know that was the word then for it) and now complementarian and married - I would kinda of wonder if the egalitarian view on behalf of your girlfriend (and possibly future wife?) is rooted in something more. What I mean is that it seems that *most* women I meet who hold to this view aren’t really too focused on the scriptural argument, and often have other challenges and issues with male leadership, and often perceive that they can’t be intelligent women leading in the church unless they believe in all roles being open to women. I would encourage you to dig a little bit over time through graceful and thoughtful conversations to see if there is more to the egalitarian view than is sitting on the surface. Personally - it wasn’t until I felt confident in my role as a woman, wife, and other things that women struggle with that I realized my holding to women in leadership was really based on personal concerns and fears about being that “typical” ministry/christian type of wife. Make sense?

This is not to say that she will change her opinion of roles of women in the church. However, if she agrees to follow your headship as husband, then she will agree that you both will agree to disagree amicably in public, but that she will not seek to undermine your teaching in any way.

This may actually lead your congregation to understand that this is not an issue of first order- that believers can agree to disagree and very much love one another. One need not conform in every area but can joyfully serve and celebrate Christ together.

If your wife is egalitarian in both the household AND in church polity, then I would try and convince her to submit in this area for the very same reasons.

Again- add a little levity: we all differ and it is important to keep the central tenets central and laugh at our diversity in smaller issues.

I think your healthy view of acceptance of who your wife is will go a long ways, but be wary and proactive.

In reality, though, whether you’re egalitarian or complementarian in your beliefs, in practice it all looks pretty similar if submission and putting your spouse above yourself is the ruling principle on either side.

If, however, her egalitarianism is more in the form of ‘in theory, a woman should be able to teach men, preach from the pulpit, etc.’ but she has no Paula White-ish ambitions of her own (or to be more charitable, Beth Moore-ish ambitions), then the question becomes…how vocal will she be on the subject?

If she is willing to voice her opinion to church members that runs contrary to yours, not only should a bright, yellow ‘DO NOT CROSS’ tape be erected around the pulpit for her benefit, I would be worried about her hosting a Ladies’ Tea! No pastor’s wife (no, not one) should ever contradict her husband in matters of theology. Not ever. To do so is to completely undermine his authority. It is one thing to gently jibe the husband for an inability to get the kids dressed in matching clothes. It is a whole other matter to criticize or correct his judgment in matters of scripture. Once a pastor’s wife engages in this, even once, she has undermined his authority in that church. You can’t ever un-ring that bell.

Ideally, a husband and wife should be in agreement on all matters of theology before the husband steps into that leadership role. It’s true that some unessential matters might remain. The husband might teach a post-trib view of the Second Coming while his dispensationalist raised wife still has her doubts. In such cases, she should voice her questions privately and probably leave her Ryrie study bible at home. A pastor’s wife might be far more reformed than her husband. Again, any disagreements on the matter should be held at home, not in view of the congregation. Ultimately, she needs to trust the Holy Spirit. If he needs correction in the matter, the Holy Spirit is much more capable in doing so.

The complementarian vs. egalitarian issue may not be one of the five fundamentals of the faith but it is important because the debate centers on Scripture. If your wife has such strong opinions on the subject (contrary to yours) that she cannot contain herself, all I foresee is a ministerial train wreck.

If a woman has the spiritual wisdom, discernment, and intellectual chops of a Priscilla, God provides areas where she can have an influence. It might not be the flashy, most prominent role, but if that is all she is interested in, I suspect she probably has more pride than true biblical wisdom.

Another thought to keep in mind: The husband and wife relationship is illustrative of the relationship of Christ and the church. In a congregation, the senior pastor and his wife are the primary role models of that relationship. Therefore, a pastor’s wife who criticizes or seeks to correct her husband in this manner is depicting quite vividly (though unintentionally) a church who is criticizing or seeking to correct Christ.

A sobering thought; one that should give us all theological hee-bee-jeebies.