The answer is, of course we should! The problems is, of course we don’t! I fear there are many “Christians” who would die for America before they die for the cross. I hope not too many, but I suspect many nonetheless. While I admit my weaknesses, my faults, and failures, I hope and pray that I would die for the cross at a moment’s notice.

Not only that, I hope I would die for that other symbol that often graces our sanctuaries–the Christian flag, a symbol of our unity of believers across time and space. Yes, for the sake of the unity of all believers, I hope I should be willing to lay down my life.

But for America that is represented by the flag? I don’t know. I suppose that all depends. If the nation drafted me to arms for the typical conflict that nations here and there wage, I expect I would render unto Caesar my service, even to death. But should the U.S.A. ask me to risk my life for a cause that is patently evil and unjust, that would violate the dictates of my God, well then I should hope I would resist Caesar unto death.

And therein lies the crux, truly. The American flag–what it symbolizes–pales in comparison to the cross of Christ and what it symbolizes. We’re not talking about different levels of glory; we’re talking about one Thing that endures and one thing that perishes, one Thing that is pure and forever holy and one Thing that is contaminated and often perverse. I cannot accept that these images are fit to be in close proximity to one another.

We might consider that Christ’s cross is the altar on which the great sacrifice was laid, the holiest of holy places in the temple of God. But the flag of this nation–or any other–is the infectious skin disease that so affects a man that we relegate him to stay outside the camp, whom we pray for and nonetheless care for in hope that he might be cleansed of his impurity and restored to us in joy.

I can’t speak on Rich Mullins behalf, and neither can he for that matter, but I believe that your understanding of what he is saying here is a bit off.

Most Christians claim that the basis of their position of being against abortion is that all life is precious, so aborting a life is wrong. If all life is precious, though, then capital punishment would clearly be wrong. The key to being consistent, in this case, is to ground a pro-life position in something more than the vague idea that all life is precious. If position is expanded and clarified, then there is not inconsistency.*

Also, in the quote it says that he doesn’t believe that all people need to be pacifists, so it seems like his position is relatively in line with your own.

American flags must be removed from the churches no matter what.

American flags need to be removed from the churches no matter what.

I am a fan of some of Rich Mullins’ songs. But his response that you posted above shows clear ignorance of Scripture.

There is Biblically supported reasoning behind the concept of the death penalty, as reflected in Gen. 9:5-6 and Ex. 21:12ff. On the contrary, there is absolutely no Biblically supported reasoning behind abortion.

Likewise, one can certainly make a case for the “Just War” theory from Scriptures. Whether a person accepts that or not is a wisdom matter, but there is Biblically supported reasoning behind it.

I have a hard time taking seriously much of Mullins’ response here when he displayed such clear Biblical ignorance.

It has been mentioned in this thread that having the flag in your services reminds you of many great freedoms you have within your country. True. God, in His sovereignty, has granted you each of those freedoms. But, you are to worship him alone. Period; there is to be no other God before him. Does having the flag in your sanctuary, your place of worship of the God of the universe, cause you to give greater praise to him resulting in his glory; or to remind you of your country, your own “greatness,” resulting in your countries glory? Is this a small matter?

As a Canadian Christian, the particular patriotism that places Christians on par with soldiers, is not only foreign to me, it is horribly offensive. If following Christ means dying to oneself, surely it means dying to one’s nation. I do not think that those who struggle with materialism (as I believe most westerners do) could possibly be assisted to bring glory to God by placing pictures of vacation homes and supercars on the walls, anymore than men intent on purity would be helped by pictures of pornography. How is it then that it is possible to think that in a country where many Christians are confused about which comes first, the church of Christ or the nation, this issue is even up for debate?

This is a worship problem. As a Canadian looking in on my brothers to the south, I feel the need to exhort you not to place a stumbling block before your brothers and sisters who may have such a difficult time losing themselves, and their nation, for the sake of Christ Jesus.

At times the culture within which we follow Christ blinds us to the realities of following Christ.

It has been mentioned in this thread that having the flag in your services reminds you of many great freedoms you have within your country. True. God, in His sovereignty, has granted you each of those freedoms. But, you are to worship him alone. Period; there is to be no other God before him. Does having the flag in your sanctuary, your place of worship of the God of the universe, cause you to give greater praise to him resulting in his glory; or to remind you of your country, your own “greatness,” resulting in your countries glory? Is this a small matter?

As a Canadian Christian, the particular patriotism that places Christians on par with soldiers, is not only foreign to me, it is horribly offensive. If following Christ means dying to oneself, surely it means dying to one’s nation. I do not think that those who struggle with materialism (as I believe most westerners do) could possibly be assisted to bring glory to God by placing pictures of vacation homes and supercars on the walls, anymore than men intent on purity would be helped by pictures of pornography. How is it then that it is possible to think that in a country where many Christians are confused about which comes first, the church of Christ or the nation, this issue is even up for debate?

This is a worship problem. As a Canadian looking in on my brothers to the south, I feel the need to exhort you not to place a stumbling block before your brothers and sisters who may have such a difficult time losing themselves, and their nation, for the sake of Christ Jesus.

Take your notion to its logical end and you may want to reconsider your dogmatism.

I think a lot of my songs are really political. I think nobody gets it, but it’s hard for me to divide up my politics and my religious convictions. There’s something offensive to me about having an American flag in a church building. When the CIA pretended to be missionaries and caused trouble in Chile so that all missionaries were kicked out, I think that makes the United States the enemy of the kingdom of God. I think a government that requires 18-year-old boys to register for the draft is anti-life. See, all the pro-lifers, they only think life is sacred if you are a fetus. I agree that life is sacred to fetuses, but I also think it’s sacred to 18-year-olds. Where were you people when Nixon was in the White House? When Lyndon Johnson was escalating the war? Not that I necessarily think that everybody has to be a pacifist; I don’t. But it does seem funny to me that so many people who are anti-abortion are pro-capital punishment. So many people who are anti-capital punishment are pro-abortion.

All I ask of anybody is that you make a little effort to be consistent. Life is one of those things that G. K. Chesterton says almost makes sense, which is the really tragic thing about life.

I really struggle with American Christianity. I’m not really sure that people with our cultural disabilities are capable of having souls, or being saved.

Tollbooth: Cultural disabilities?

Mullins: We could call it that. People who grow up in a culture that worships pleasure, leisure, and affluence. I think that’s where the church is doubly damned when they use Jesus as a vehicle for achieving all of that. Like, if you give a tithe, He’ll make you rich. Why? Are you hacking Him off or something? If you give a tithe, you get rid of ten percent of the root of all evil. You should be giving ninety percent. Cause God can handle money better than we can.

But it all depends on motivation. Which is more important to the church, the cross or the flag? The gospel or patriotism? If it’s not the cross and the gospel, the flag needs to go.

This blog posting provides an example of how patriotism leads to the use of divisive symbols.

An American flag, for example, is a symbol that can represent different things to different people. For some, it stands for freedom and justice; but for others: military hubris, racial inequality, and unbridled capitalism. Regardless of one’s response, a national flag will always be divisive, for it states that I am this and others are that. Why then are such symbols found in churches across America? Is this a form of idolatry—the equivalent of placing an image of Baal in the Temple of God?

Idolatry is not limited to bending the knee before blocks of wood and statues of stone. Colossians 3:5 describes covetousness and “greed which amounts to idolatry.” Some would say that it is only idolatry if you sacrifice your children to the object of worship. However, do not parents sacrifice their children in international wars, all for the sake of a flag?

A national symbol no more belongs in a place of worship than does a racist symbol. At the very least, it is a distraction. The possibility that a flag may stir up negative thoughts among members and visitors who have come here to worship makes the use of such symbols wholly inappropriate.

The 3 preceding paragraphs come straight from a book that I’m reading, which I’d recommend for those interested in these subjects: “Blood Guilt: Christian Responses to America’s War on Terror” (New Covenant Press, 2011). See Amazon or http://covenant.nu

I think that a pastor should certainly exercise patience and wisdom if he desires to remove the flag - particularly if the congregation is initially opposed to its removal. I agree with everything you said, Dr. Moore, about re-ordering of affections, the flag being a reminder to honor leaders, and all the rest, but I have to say I’m more in the “Just don’t do it” camp. The reason for this is that the flag sends messages to people who see it whether I want it to or not. For that matter, every facet of a church’s programs, worship space, community involvement, etc. sends a message. And having the American flag flying in my place of worship may not send the ones, like the ones you have suggested it should, that I would want it to.

Much of the problem I see is that the American flag has become just another part of the right-wing, nationalistic, evangelical sub-culture in traditional churches (particularly so in SBC churches). Does the flag have the potential to remind members to pray for and honor their leaders? Yes. Does it? Not often enough to justify its presence, in my experience - particularly when most Christians seem only to pray for the leaders with whom they disagree politically. You have attended enough SBC services to know that it’s Christian flag on the right, American flag on the left, right next to the piano and organ, respectively. It’s the stuff of Simpson-esque stereotypes. I could understand why a visiting lesbian couple, for instance, might half-way expect to see a Fox News bumper-sticker posted somewhere in the church. It’s silly, yes, but an outsider doesn’t know that if their only expectations for what attending church is like has come from watching the Simpsons and seeing Westboro Baptist Church stories featured on cable news stations. For that matter, even the Christan flag sends messages I may not want to send. Do I want a practicing Muslim immigrant who agrees to attend church at the request of their Christian neighbor to look at the Christian flag and recall to memory, for instance, the horrors of The Crusades that were committed against their forefathers under a so-called “Christian” banner?

Another problem is generational. Partly due to our chronological removal from events like WWII, the Millennial generation doesn’t have the same heart-felt affection for the American flag as the Greatest generation does. It has different experiential meaning for both groups. The Greatest generation can and should be proud that their nation played a part of defending the defenseless against an evil oppressor. And their experience, wisdom, and will should be honored in our congregations, even in this issue. However, the pastor has the responsibility of working to reform their hearts (if need be) so that they seek to honor strangers before they seek their own honor. They ought to be willing to give up the display of the flag if it is to the benefit of non-believers. They, as older and more mature believers, out to be the first of us to run to submission rather than liberty for the sake of the people Christ bled for. Again, this requires patience, wisdom, and gentleness on the part of the pastor.

In summary, we are the Kingdom of God, not an earthly one. We have the privilege in this great nation of religious liberty from government. We also have freedom of speech to make our views known. We don’t need flags to do it. The pulpit is sufficient. I would not want a person to miss the message of the cross of Christ from the pulpit because they can’t hear it over the noise of the pieces of cloth which flank it. We are the church, and the gospel should be our flag, the salvation of the nations our rallying cry.

• Christian worship is honoring Christ and our citizenship in His kingdom. When we gather, it is not as a Americans nor to honor American history / citizenship. This comes up among American Christians, for some reason. Notwithstanding the appropriateness of honoring veterans, sacrifice and progress on a national level, the gathering of the Church is not for that. I believe the accoutrements of corporate worship should reflect this focus of Christian worship.

• Christian worship is an expression of Christian unity (cf. Eph 4:1-6; Heb 12:22-24). Though it may feel counter-intuitive, we have more in common with the Iranian and Syrian Christian, than with the guy who stood in-line with us Wednesday at Chic-Fil-A. Physical elements in worship should reflect this and not encourage Christians to assume the contrary - that we are united as Americans, rather than Christians.

• Christian worship, as focused on Christ our Lord and expressing unity in Him, should not be offensive or confusing to any Christian. I have been privileged to participate in corporate worship with local churches in six nations on 3 continents, and what have I never seen? The national flag of the respective nation in their building. This seems to be a particularly American oversight. If a US flag is a stumbling-block to Christians of other ethnicities or nationalities, whether they are just visiting or have immigrated, it is a grievous error and potential tears asunder what Christ has accomplished among every tribe and people!

• Christian worship should evangelize unbelievers. We are familiar with the popular myth that Christianity is an American / Western cultural phenomenon. Good luck giving a refutation of that to the visiting unbeliever on Sunday morning while standing in front of a U.S. flag in your place of worship!

In short, corporate worship - through Him, by the Spirit, to the Father (Eph 2:18) - is not an American phenomenon, but a Christian (Trinitarian) one! I believe the physical elements of where Christians gather should reflect that as much as is feasible. In terms of pastoral wisdom, one would be wise not to move the flag until Christian worship is rightly (biblically) understood by the congregation as centered on Christ, in Christian unity, to be edifying for all Christians, and to proclaim the Gospel to unbelievers.

If you are a pastor of a church where having the American flag becomes a source of controversy, no matter the controversy, it needs to go. It cannot be an obstacle that comes between church members nor is an obstacle for the lost coming into the church.

I’m okay with the American flag in our church. The problem is the Allegiance that usually goes with it. I am not okay with the Pledge of Allegiance in a church. When a congregation is gathered, the only allegiance we should EVER pledge is to our Lord. Besides, the history of the Pledge of Allegiance is swimming in socialism and materialism. I refuse to say the Pledge. I just can’t bring myself to do it any more.

And just another thought, I have had German friends tell me how horrified they are to see an American flag in a church–Nazi flags were once prominently displayed in Germans churches during the Third Reich.