Jesus Christ has been and always will be eternally God. He didn’t achieve god hood as a spirit child before Elohim physically had sex with Mary and created his physical body. This is not the same Jesus. The real Jesus was and is God and was birthed by a true virgin.

So the issue isn’t what Mormons are taught and not taught. The issue is that Mormons don’t believe in the correct, biblical Jesus Christ and obviously will then believe other poor doctrine. Until they do they will be happy to live on in ignorant sinful bliss. I love these people but they believe a lie as I did once before I knew the real Christ!

Check out http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

Good question. This sounds like a sincere effort at dialogue. I read recently about an evangelical who has dedicated his academic career to studying the LDS faith. From what I read, he really was very objective. Try Dr. Richard Mouw.

and try this link to his interfaith dialogues with the LDS.

http://www.calvin.edu/january/2013/mouw.htm

Connie: your Christ is indecipherable, and incongruous with sprititual and intellectual thought. Nicea is a dead-end. You might as well be a Papist; at least they claim authority.

This is a great comment for people jumping off from your point of view…..except where you somehow come to the conclusion that Mormons do not think of their religion with an eye toward doctrine. This can not be any more wrong. If anything, doctrine is extremely important to us.

And it is a real choice. Sociologist Randy Stark says that religions that demand more of their faithful also have more assets and benefits, tangible and intangible, that reward members. He notes correctly that Mormonism is one of the highest demand religions in terms of sexual morality, personal service, donations, and lifestyle such as.avoiding alcohol. You need to study Mormonism well enough to understand why Mormons are willing to invest so much in their faith.

In particular, Mormons have a strong belief that they have access to a more complete truth about God’s purposes for mankind and the mission of the Savior, Jesus Christ. That is why tens of thousands of Evangelicals and Catholics become Mormons every year. Based on the way you denigrate Mormons, you clearly have.no idea why they believe the.Book of Mormon teaches profound truths about Jesus Christ, and have little hope of persuading them that you can add to what they have.

A recent article in First Things journal was.titled “Mormonism obsessed with Christ”. An evangelical professor finally got around to reading the Book of Mormon and was surprised that the main charater is Jesus Christ, not only as the resurrected Savior but also as Jehovah, creator of the earth, who condescended to suffer with us in the earth. Saying that you don’t recognize this Jesus is disingenuous: he is the Jesus of the New Testament, the Son of God, who fulfills the law, who is full of compassion. He is not the Nicene entity, but neither is the Jesus in the Bible.

Would it surprise you to know that exactly how you describe your God is exactly how I describe my God? PS I am Mormon. Guess I am going to be o.k.

Trinitarian Christians tell everyone all you must do is confess your sins and believe in Christ. Well, Mormons do this. Then they change their tune and add on ‘Well, you also have to believe in the same Christ as us”. Well, Mormons do this (as shown above). Then they add on “Well, then you also have to believe the same doctrines as us.” Oh good, you finally changed it enough to exclude us. The only problem is that the doctrines you espouse are simply your interpretations of scripture and have changed greatly over time. And the differences between your sects are just as glaring as any between us and the average evangelical.

1. You are a Baptist minister and the Dean of the School of Theology and Senior Vice President for Academic Administration of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Your authority is academic at best, certainly not divinely ordained (as Jesus Apostles were), and extends only to the farthest corners of the BAPTIST segment of the Christian world. You cannot say with any authority who is not Christian. You may be able to say who is not Baptist, but your tenets vary from those of others in your Christian tent (lutherns, methodists, etc.). Simply put you have no authority over all of Christianity in order to exclude other denominations.

2. Your authority stems from either your alleged “calling” by the holy spirit, or your attainment of certain academic/theological degrees from an academic institution for which you now serve as Dean. Did Jesus establish the School of Theology and the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary? No. Does Jesus or any Apostle ordained by Him direct this school? No. By definition, your only revelation is contained in the Bible. The only Apostles you recognize have been dead for millenia, and you have no direct link to their authority. Therefore you have no authority to arbitrate, in the name of Jesus, who is His follower and who is not.

3. You ridicule the LDS view of the afterlife, its claim of continuing revelation, and every other LDS tenet that enhances and clarifies doctrines that are at best unclear in the historical compilation we call the Bible. I am assuming that you are not nor have ever been dead. Therefore, how in the world do you know without a doubt what Heaven will be like or what we as children of God will be doing in Heaven. Your response, based on this article, is that those things are just a “mystery”. And yet you claim logic is on your side, essentially saying it is better to believe nothing but a mystery over an actual explanation of who we really are, where we came from, and where we are headed. I posit that the most you can possibly assert is faith in your “mystery” concerning the afterlife. Sure you have some hints in the Bible to point the way, but these are just that, hints. If the Bible was infallable and represented EVERY word that came from God, Joseph Smith would have had no need to try and decide which of all the Christian Denominations is right (because we would know the correct answer to such cosmic questions as does a man need to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God, is there a ressurection, and other tenets that are still quibbled over by the various denominations. Also there would NOT be SO MANY different Christian denominations.)

On a side note, your arguments concerning the “revelations” about polygamy and the race issue (which you have totally mischaracterized) show a deep naivete regarding the circumstances of the early LDS church. The United States was trying to and would have crushed/erased the early LDS church (the only church in US history whose assets were seized by the US government, whose members were as a group disenfranchised, and who were ordered to be exterminated by State law). Why would Christ not reveal to end the “offending” minority practice of polygamy, in order to have the church survive and grow? It is His church. He condoned the plural marriage of Abraham and others when he sanctioned such. Was Abraham going against God? No. Does God change some of his laws from time to time? Yes (think of the gospel being preached only to the children of Isreal until Peter received the revelation to share the gospel with the Gentiles). You simply do not know or refuse to acknowledge the history.

finally, Mormons don’t secretly fear Joseph Smith was a fraud. The leaders of the Christian sects who ridicule and disparage the LDS, as you have done–leaders who make a handsome profit for so doing–truly fear that God still speaks as he always has throught prophets (Amos 3:7). You fear your own lack of ordained authority, and the possibility that Christ himself has restored His church, with Apostles and prohets today (you not being one of them).

The Son of God who died on the cross and took upon us our sins. He atoned for us as the Lamb of God, perfect, innocent sacrifice for the world that crucified him. The atonement made Jesus the mediator and only obedience to his commandments and teachings of his gospel found in the New Testament can save us.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands is the Gate to the narrow path of obedience to the commandments of God is the only way. The way to God provided by the Savior and Redeemer of our souls.

We are to prepare ourselves in our lives through belief on the name of Jesus Christ to enter into the presence of Heavenly Father. How can we do that if we don’t keep the commandments of God?

How can Jesus Christ declare to his Father we believe on his name when we don’t follow his commandments or teachings?

Do we have faith when we don’t trust God or believe by disobedience and sin?

Only through the grace of Christ we are saved by enduring to the end of our lives in the commandments, teachings and faith on the name of Jesus Christ. That by His works we are saved and we show that faith by our works in being a follower of Jesus Christ.

If we have faith alone we are as the devils for they believe too. James 2:19.

Our actions show our faith. There is no act or work I can do to save myself. All fall short of the glory of God. So there is only one way and that is on the merits of Jesus Christ.

To have Faith, Repent, be Baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These are works which show devotion, trust and faith in Jesus Christ. You can be a good person, but a good person is not enough, will never be enough to be saved into the kingdom of God when his authorized servants are available to perform his holy ordinances to enter the kingdom of God on earth.

Without these works of God, your faith is in vain and your works are dead. This is the gospel, teachings and commandments of Christ from the New Testament.

Follow the Christ taught in the New Testament and be saved.

Mormons are Latter Day Christians. We agree we are not creed or traditional Christians. We reject those teachings or creeds. The Trinity is not biblical and already been proven by the New Testament. However if you want to believe the creeds or teachings of traditional Christianity you are welcome to do so. God will judge between us by the light of Christ we live by. Just know Mormons, Latter Day Christians, will not point to the creeds for confirmation of Christianity, but rely on the merits and mercy of Jesus Christ and his gospel through the New Testament.

Each week your friend experiences the sacrament or Lord’s Supper to renew the covenants of baptism.

It is central to the worship service of Latter Day Christians.

I recommend going to church with your friend, I am sure she will not deny you nor will she have a problem if you want her to go with you to church. If you want to see for yourself who your friend worships go to Church.

I teach Sunday school and the last lesson was titled “Repent and Return unto the Lord”.

Imagine what it was like at the time of Jesus, the Messiah had come and was teaching new doctrines to the Jews. No longer was it an eye for an eye, but to love your enemies. He taught them to be kind and to love.

Peter, James, John, Mark, Luke and Paul all added their words to the early saints that was new for them. Revelations from God that were his holy and inspired word. Later their testimonies, letters and words were complied into a book long after their deaths we know as the Holy Bible which is scripture to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Today inspired men of God are again here on the earth with the same powers, authority and inspiration to speak in the name of the Lord. Apostles of Jesus Christ are real and teaching us today if we will listen. Miracles, blessings and the gifts of the Holy Ghost are being poured out upon the world.

The invitation and call has gone out to the wretched in heart and the sinner. Come unto Christ. He will make your burdens light by obedience to his commandments. Jesus said, “Come and follow me.” Where are we following Him to?

The presence of the Father, our Heavenly Father.

How do we get there?

Article of Faith 4, expanded with commentary by me.

First is Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, that he is the Son of God and atoned for our sins and weaknesses.

Second is Repentance. A commitment not only to confess and forsake our sins to do as Jesus said, Go and sin no more, but to follow him. Keep his commandments and love one another as it appears you love your friend.

Third is Baptism. It is an absolute requirement that everyone must be baptized. Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness by one holding the proper authority to baptize. If he needed to be baptized so do we.

Fourth is the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Only those with authority of God can give this gift of the Comforter. To be your constant companion to give you the gifts of the Spirit.

Now these are the basics of the LDS faith which are found in the Articles of Faith that declares the beliefs of Latter Day Christians to the world.

These are just the beginning of the journey. If you and your friend are worthy, keep the commandments and the Holy Ghost as a constant companion in your life God will bless you further.

The blessings found in the Temple of God can be yours. To have a fullness of joy. Salvation not just for you, but all your loved ones who have passed from this life to future generations not yet born. The fulfillment of the prophecy of Elijah to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers.

Those blessings are sacred and precious to the Lord which is why they are performed in his holy house where the saints are worthy by following the teachings of Jesus and the admonishment of Paul the Apostle. (The 13th Article of Faith.)

I have no doubt that your friend too needs God everyday just like you. We pray to the same God, our Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ to help us in our daily struggle to follow the teachings and the commandments of the Son of God.

It is not easy. It is only made harder when people tell you that you don’t believe in Jesus when on the first of the month there is testimony meetings where you declare before the assembly of saints your faith in Jesus Christ.

When you partake the sacrament to remember him. His body that was crucified and his blood that was shed for us.

See for yourself that your prayers are answered by going with your friend to Church and even inviting your friend to yours.

Pray before you go to have the Holy Ghost with you and make your prayer a reality as an instrument in his hand through your life as an example of Jesus Christ of his teachings.

On October 5th and 6th is the Simi-Annual General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You can hear and see for yourself the Apostles, Prophets and organization of the Church of Jesus Christ speak to you. You can hear their testimonies and teachings for yourself.

God bless you, God bless your friend. May we all strengthen our love and devotion toward Jesus Christ to follow his commandments and endure in faith until we return to our Father in Heaven to be in his presence.

1. If Evangelicals want to proselytize to Mormons on a larger scale then the first step is to stop bashing Mormon beliefs. Instead, give Mormons some respect. As a Mormon, I love having religious discussions with friends of other faiths as long as they remain respectful. My friends share what they believe and I share what I believe. We ask questions of each other. I’ve learned a lot about other faiths and I’ve developed more respect for other faiths which has helped shape my personal views. But the second someone shows up to tell me how stupid Mormonism is, then the conversation is over.

2. This is really an extension of my first thought. Attacking Mormonism exudes insecurity in your own faith. It’s the classical behavior of tearing people down to your own level. If your faith is the correct and superior one then help people see it through the brightness of your lives and your doctrine.

3. Attacking fantastical claims by Mormons is not going to win over Mormons on a large scale, especially when your own faith relies heavily upon fantastical claims.

The funny thing is each of these 30,000 protestant denominations all claim they have the Holy Spirit guiding them. This has become chaos. The famous Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon once said, “It seems odd that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to them should think so little of what He has revealed to others.” How can one protestant church who claims they have an “internal witness” guiding them criticize anyone else who claims they have the same “internal witness” guiding them out to a different interpretation of Scripture?

These “Christian” cults have every right to look the Evangelical in the eye and say, “we did not establish independent interpretation of Scripture as the highest authority. You did this. Now, on what basis do you say our interpretation is wrong? You have cast aside the tradition of the early Church and rejected the teaching authority and cling to your new man made doctrine of sola Scriptura. Who are you to condemn us? You say private interpretation is the highest principle of the Christian faith and then claim your interpretation is the only correct one. Make up your mind. All we’ve done is follow your principles out to their logical conclusions.”

Likewise, if the Church has no teaching authority by which to interpret Sacred Scripture, then everyone’s individual and contradictory interpretation or opinion is equally valid (since it claims to be from the Holy Spirit), and this completely nullifies and denies any existence of unity or sanity in the Body of Christ and makes a mockery of absolute truth and unity. If private interpretation is the final criterion, who has the right to condemn the Mormons or the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are interpreting the Bible according to THEIR own principles and private judgment? By necessity, moreover, each must deny that the other has the Spirit. “If you had the Holy Spirit leading you into all truth, you would certainly agree with me, since the Holy Spirit led me to this contradictory interpretation.” We are thus brought back to the question, “What does this Bible verse mean to you?”

Mormonism is protestantism taken out to its logical deduction. And others shall follow their path. Remember what Our Lord Jesus Christ said: “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me . The glory which you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one…” John 17: 20-23.

The Lord Jesus gave mankind one Church. As the apostle Paul said in 1 Timothy 3:15: ….”if I am delayed you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” and Paul also said in Titus 1:7 “For a bishop (the greek is episkopos) as God’s steward, must be blameless….” and in 1 Timothy 3:5 it says one who holds the office of Bishop cares for God’s Church (or is the steward of God’s Church as Titus 1:7 said). Remember, a steward is an administratior over the household of another. Paul is suggesting that a candidate for bishop must be fit to oversee the affairs of God’s household, which is the Church (1 Timothy 3:15).

And since the Bible call the Church the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) , how can 30,000 different denominations all teach different truths? This makes a mockery of the absolutism of truth. If further sets itself totally against what Our Lord Jesus said in the Gospel of John: That he wanted his followers to be of one flock.

I see members volunteer their time and sometimes work their fingers to the bone for the purpose of bringing souls (yes, even their own) to Christ.

And yet, our well-intentioned, kind-hearted, and no doubt God-fearing author wheels out the same stinging and sadistic low blow, and I quote, “sad reality that Mormonism is not even remotely Christian.”

Mr. Moore, if your definition of Christianity does not permit inclusion of the doctrines, beliefs, behaviors, and membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day, then I want no part of your Christianity. Like most of my fellow active Mormons, I am getting way too busy volunteering my resources for the glory of God to go around putting out belief-damaging brush fires started by ideological arsons.

We Mormons are a very practical, results-oriented people. You will reach more Mormons if you can show them that your way of understanding the teachings of Jesus Christ and the churches you have built around them will make them better disciples of Him and will provide more profound opportunities to learn the lessons of humility, love and service that are the true “meat” of his gospel. In my humble opinion, your ability to do so will have less to do with your “witness” and much, much more to do with your own examples of humility, love and service.

As an aside, my advice is usually the same to my coreligionists.

Evangelicals will quote St. John 17 by saying “The Father and I are one” and then forget to quote the rest of verse 21: “That they ALL may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one IN us; that the world may believe that thou sent me” (emphasis added). If the Father and the Son are one then ALL of humanity is one also.

Evangelicals also fail to answer a basic question that many of us have, “what will happen to my native American ancestors who never knew Jesus?” I don’t buy it that God condemns them to Hell for not having had the opportunity to accept Jesus. A fair and loving God gives all of mankind a chance to come to Jesus.

There are flaws in Mormonism, no question about it, but they pale in comparison to Evangelism. Hence why many of us grow past Evangelism and join the Mormon Church. We find a home among others who also love and worship a Jesus who loves ALL of mankind, not just those lucky enough to find Him.

It’s interesting that you equate Mormon belief with fallen humanity and idolatry. “Fallen humans have affections and inclinations that they then prop up with beliefs, convincing themselves that their systems are true.” Do you not see how this applies to you as well? Even if it didn’t, what you are saying is that Mormons believe because they want to “prop up” or justify their own affections and inclinations. Again, that reeks of contempt and is, in my view, a nonstarter for talking to Mormons.

Then on the other hand, you state that Mormons don’t really believe what they say they believe: “we must remember that, deep within their hearts, Mormons fear that Joseph Smith is wrong. They, like we before conversion, are ’suppressing the truth’ (Rom 1:18).” This is wrong. One thing I have learned is that Mormons do not fear that their beliefs are wrong; that thought wouldn’t even occur to most Mormons. In fact, most of the ex-Mormons I know (myself included) say that merely pondering the possibility that Mormonism isn’t true was the first step in figuring out the truth. Assuming that, deep down, Mormons don’t really believe and are suppressing truth is another recipe for failure.

Finally, people generally do not listen until they are ready to listen. I can’t imagine how assuming that Mormons don’t really believe what they say and rationalize their belief because they want earthly affections is going to get anyone ready to listen.

1. Criticize our beliefs. Criticism of one’s beliefs is analogous to criticizing somebody’s mother: not at all productive and only creates or perpetuates antipathy toward the critic. I belong to a community interfaith group. A few weeks after 9/11 we met to discuss ways to increase understanding among believers in our community. An Imam made a very mild reference to his belief that “Jesus Christ was a great man, but not God.” The evangelical members of the group went ballistic, and the meeting quickly adjourned. The criticism of the LDS church is regularly criticized in much more hostile ways without overreaction. Criticism of closely-held beliefs is never productive.

2. Tell us that we are evil or going to hell because of what we believe. As a child I grew up in a community with a local bible college. Students (and some professors) would regularly come to our home. Many would stand on the sidewalk preaching to their own group preaching against the Mormons. On Sunday afternoons, while we studied the scriptures, a knock would frequently come to the door with a group telling whoever answered the door that their beliefs were leading them to hell. As a 10 year old I was more confused about such a statement; and not the least bit engaged. I was approached on the playground after school several times by bible college students telling me that if I wanted to go to heaven I had to believe what they did. In the 1960’s this was a common experience for LDS children in my community. In 2012 such a practice would be called “stalking.”

3. Tell us what we REALLY believe. Any article on the Internet about the LDS church or member of the LDS church (ie. Mitt Romney) is followed in the “Comments” section by a diatribe of Internet trolls who feel compelled to expose the LDS church’s “secret” or heretofore unacknowledged doctrine. One of the favorite methods is to take LDS church history out of context, and usually explained by a “former” Mormon. Two examples. First, the LDS canon consists of the four standard works: Old and New Testaments, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. To quote the “Journal of Discourses” -a journal of doctrinal opinion and discussion- is non-canonical and does not depict the doctrine of the LDS church. Second, in a political season it’s very apparent how words of candidates are twisted and misrepresented by the opposing side. LDS church history is not represented by those who choose to spin their message to their own advantage. LDS church historical events are nearly always misrepresented and taken out of context to attack the church.

Dumb question; where is your daily expose’ of Hussein’s perverted form of religion, Black Separatism? Just asking.

Have you investigated Eastern Orthodoxy? It is the polar opposite of “Protestantism” (more specifically Calvinistic Protestantism), but unlike Mormonism, is still very much Christian. Eastern Orthodoxy emphasizes celebrating the mysteries of the Christian faith, while Western Christianity, following the example of St. Augustine, and taken to the extreme by Jean Calvin, emphasizes trying to explain the mysteries of the Christian faith.

God grant you wisdom in your quest.

Genesis 1:27 - Man created in Gods image
Exodus 33:11 - Moses spoke to God face to face
Matt 3:16-17 - Christs baptism: Christ in river, voice from heaven, Holy Ghost in form of a dove.
Matt 26:39 - Gethsemane - Who is Christ praying to, and who’s will is he subjecting himself to? The Father, but if they are the same being, wouldn’t he be praying to himself?
Acts 7:55-56 - Martyrdom of the Apostle Stephen where he looks up into heaven and sees Christ on the right hand of God.

Another commenter said that at the end of the world, the only begotten of the Father (Christ) will be on his right hand. How can the Trinity be on it’s own right hand?

Until a Trinitarian can use logic, not fall back on mystery and faith to explain the nature of God to me, I’ll stay put, because what I know makes infinitely more sense to me.

Further more, which ONE of the evangelical churches is the right one? They can’t all be right…Matt 7:13-14, Eph 4:5.

This contradiction was the catalyst for the Restoration in the first place: a sincere desire to discover New Testament Christianity. This argument between “reason” and “emotion” is a false one. For me the doctrines of the Restoration are entirely reasonable–AND biblical. The truths of Mormonism make the Bible make sense, both the Old and New Testaments.

Jesus Christ revealed though His prophet of the last days: “I will tell you in your mind and in your hearts, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.” Doctrine and Coveants 8:2

Moore’s premise that Protestanism is reason and Mormonism a desire to believe without reason is not only offensive but reveals a serious lack of understanding of Mormonism–and may I suggest Protestantism.

You have a long way to go before you “convert” this Mormon.

As Christians you believe in a Bible that constantly refers to visions, angels, revelations, miracles and then you have the temerity to tell the Mormons who believe in the life and mission of Jesus Christ, that there are no more visions, angels, revelations and miracles. How far you have all come from the true and living gospel. Tell me. When Jesus returns to the earth (I assume you still accept this Biblical prophecy) and he opens his mouth, will you turn and run away holding your hands over your ears because the Bible is all there is?

If you do not believe in continuing revelation you reject one of the foundational premises of the Bible.

For those who still have an open mind and understand that Russell D. Moore has made a parody of what Mormonism really is, I would suggest mormonscholarstestify.org

I agree with you Arthur that far too many Christians are still in the milk stage and cannot explain what they believe or why they believe as they do. That is going to change really fast. Visit my website and spread the Good News!

In Christ’s Service,
David Behrens
Sola Gloria Dei!