Should We Marry If We’re Theologically Divided?
— Monday, April 26th, 2010 —
Below is the latest “Questions and Ethics” query. Help me answer this question by telling me your thoughts in the comments. I’ll weigh in later in the week.
Dear Dr. Moore,
We are a couple thinking about whether we should marry. We love each other, and we love Jesus. We’ve been dating a while now, get along great, and everyone in our lives thinks we are made for each other. We agree, except for one thing.
One of us is a longtime member of a conservative evangelical (some would say “fundamentalist”) Bible church. The church is five-point Calvinist in the way it understands salvation, baptistic in the way it understands the church, dispensationalist in the way it understands the end-times, and definitely is not charismatic in any way in understanding the Holy Spirit. This one of us (just call me “Calvin”) agrees with my church’s doctrine. The doctrines of grace are really important to me in the way I understand God’s sovereignty in salvation, and in every aspect of my life, but I’m not one of those guys who beats every one over the head with Reformed theology.
One of us is a longtime member of an Assemblies of God church, and a convinced Pentecostal. I (just call me “Aimee”) speak in tongues, privately and sometimes in church services. I’m not an “evangelist” for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I don’t think speaking in tongues makes a person any more holy or mature than any other Christian. I just think that’s what the Bible teaches. I also think salvation is a free choice, and that somebody can choose to stop being a Christian and, then, lose his salvation. That’s what my boyfriend says makes me a “five-point Arminian,” although I’d never heard that language before.
In case you misunderstand, we’re not arguing about this. It almost never comes up. We talk a lot about Jesus and a lot about the Bible, but, probably out of love for each other, we don’t bring up speaking in tongues, miraculous healing, or predestination! Here’s our question: should we marry?
We know it’s not right to marry an unbeliever (we agree on that part of 1 Corinthians!). But is it okay to marry a fellow believer in another denomination? If we do marry, should we continue to go to our separate churches? Is that unsubmissive of Aimee to follow her conscience to be in a church that doesn’t, as she sees it, “forbid to speak in tongues” (1 Cor. 14:39)? And when there are children, what should we do then: raise them in the Bible church or in the Pentecostal church, or carry them back and forth?
We really love each other, and want to be married. We also want to do what is honoring to the Lord and we don’t want to marry if it’s wrong or if it will hurt the other. We both are really interested in what you’ll have to say.
Quizzically Yoked, Calvin and Aimee
64 Responses to “Should We Marry If We’re Theologically Divided?”
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Calvin and Aimee’s need to consider:
1) Their presentation issues are rooted far more deeply in hermeneutics which will certainly reveal themselves in other areas of theological committments over time.
2) What is Aimee’s view of the authority of Scripture? This will be a major issue at some point in time.
3) Is Aimee willing to raise her children in support of Calvin’s spiritual leadership in the home?
4) What does submission look like in this setting?
5) What does loving Aimee as Christ loved the church look like for Calvin?
Just some initial thoughts.
Jim
My husband and I were in a similar situation before we married (although I was not Pentecostal), but I guess you could say I “converted” to Reformed theology.
I had never understood clearly what it was before he lovingly explained it to me, and I knew if we were to marry/when we married, he would become my spiritual leader. If this woman is not willing to submit to her husband as a spiritual leader, they should not marry.
As for children, parents should always present a united front to their children, meaning one church, one teaching, etc.
I’m in a very similar situation to the one you described, except in reverse. Our marriage is nearly 10 years now and we are greatly blessed by God.
What I can tell you is that I think it will be a major issue if you cannot attend the same church. I prefer charismatic worship and believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, are still in operation today. The church we attend doesn’t believe in or practice these gifts - it is more or less a church that my wife prefers, but I also love this church and believe it is the place God has us. I’ve never been in a church where I completely agree 100% down the line with everything that is taught or stated in the by-laws. I’m not even sure if such a church even exists.
So my point here is that one or both parties may have to make some compromises, provided that you can find a church that does believe in the essentials of the Gospel, the authority and inerrancy of Scripture, etc.
Now if one or both of you feels that they cannot in good conscience compromise and find a church that you can both worship in together, I think you may have a compatibility problem that should not be ignored. I don’t believe it is good or appropriate to enter a marriage covenant if cannot attend the same church. This would be a problem that would only become more serious over time, especially as children enter the equation.
Calvin and Aimee, It is wonderful to find a future mate that will love the Lord with you and serve Him. I can honestly say that I have never heard of this issue before, and it took me back. My answer is simple. If it is enough of a concern to ask for help on, it is trouble. This situation is not much different from the question of folks that marry outside thier denomination-and that usually ends up badly. Personally, I would have a problem living with a person who believes a person can lose their salvation-I am fundamentally opposed to that, and I certainly would not want my future children taught that.
You two need to seriously consider this-I see nothing but trouble down the road, unless Calvin can convince Aimee that her salvation is assured!!
The letter is interesting as on the surface, it appears to be a question about marriage, but it truth it is a revelation on the conflict between things that come from God, and things that come from man.
Both agree on the word of God (given to man through the Holy Spirit), but not on the practice and theology of the protestant religion (created by man). Both should seek the truth given to the Apostles by Jesus and by those that personally knew the Apostles.
What about marriage? Does marriage come from God or from man? Since the beginning, God created man and woman for each other and blessed marriage. Jesus even sanctified marriage by miraculously turning water into wine at Cana.
Marriage is an icon of Christ and the church: As Christ gives Himself totally to and for His Church, so the husband is to give himself totally to and for his wife. As the Church, in turn, is subject to Christ, so the wife subjects herself to her husband. Thus the two become one in a life of mutual love and mutual subjection to each other in Christ. (See Ephesians 5:20-33)
Children born into a marriage with parents who attend other churches recognize the God created/man made conflict when they begin to refer to each denomination as “Mommy’s church” and “Daddy’s church.” When the marriage, like the church, is unified in what was given to man by God, then the children will simply note that it’s “God’s Church.”
Both will need to give up their personal (created by man) views and focus on instructions provided directly by God. Broken down, “Theology” is literally “God’s word.” They will find the Truth if they have ears to hear.
Great reply. Go back to the authority, God’s Word. Read it regularly together, pray about it - out loud- together. God will give you direction and peace. He will guide your path. Nothing is impossible for Him. My advice is to pay attention to how the Spirit is guiding you, and listen to our God through His Word and in your life.
I would say whether or not this marriage can work will depend on three things:
1. How firmly Calvin and Aimee believe their particular doctrines for themselves - are their beliefs primarily rooted in the fact that they grew up/were saved in a church that taught these doctrines, or in studying the Scriptures out for themselves. i.e. is it possible that either could change opinions?
2. What Calvin believes about Aimee’s gift of tongues - does he question her integrity in claiming she speaks in tongues, does he believe she is overly emotional, does he believe she is influenced by Satan. Can they reconcile his belief that this gift has ceased with her practice of it, in a way that is respectful to both of them.
3. Can Aimee submit to Calvin’s spiritual leadership with these different views - worldviews, even - they have?
For me, as a theologically educated, charismatic Calvinist woman, the marriage would be impossible. I wouldn’t go to a cessationist Arminian church or place myself under the authority of such elders, nor could I properly submit to a man with such different views. In less important doctrinal issues, that have little bearing on worldview, where in my church it does not affect my ability to submit to the elders nor their ability to allow me to serve, such as eschatology, I could likewise comfortably marry a man with a different view from mine.
I think they should both compromise a little and find a Sovereign Grace church to attend! Move if necessary!
I’m with Andrea :-)
Similar situation to where my wife and I were in our backgrounds (although we’ve since converged a good bit). Find a Sovereign Grace church :)
No doubt about it, these differences will cause a lot of conflict down the road. The only reason that it hasn’t already is because they are they are avoiding the hot topics! They will definitely not be able to avoid these subjects when they have children.
I think they need to work *hard* to come to the same view on these things before they marry. I think the bride-to-be has the biggest obligation to try to see things from her future groom’s position. After all, he is going to be the spiritual leader once their married. This will be good practice for married life.
As a reformed Baptist, I would absolutely not marry a Pentecostal. They didn’t even mention the fact that she doesn’t believe in eternal security. And then there’s the complimentarian/egalitarian issues that are involved here. Oh. my. word. What a mess.
They need to take off their rose colored glasses and hash through these issues properly.
@Michelle Ray,
I think you make a lot of wonderful points Michelle and I agree with you.
At the same time, however, I can’t help but to think of some friends that I have. I know a married couple that did not start out on the same page as far as denomination is concerned. He is non-denominational Christian and she was a Catholic. They tell me that the used to have all kinds of fights about religion. As a way to prove her husband wrong, she went to the Bible and dug into scripture. As a result of her study, she started to see the short comings of Catholicism. As she learned more and more about what was in the Bible, she renounced Catholicism and as a result incurred her family’s spurn; mostly from her mother. Also, in addition to all of this, she also had an important influence on her sister in which she later renounced Catholicism as well.
I’m not trying to say it was all easy but I can see how God made good come from it. I suppose what I’m trying to say is that even if a couple from different denominations decide to unite in marriage, God can still work in such matters as He does in all things and He can make wonderful things come of it.
Just thought I would share this testimony to the all sufficient love and grace of God.
May it all be for His glory,
Wade
Irrespective of being married or not, we should always keep 2 Corinthians 5:15 in mind when examining how we should live; “and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.” God sacrificed His son on a cross so that we may be reconciled unto Him because He desires to be our God and He wants us (believers) to be His people (Leviticus 26:12). God does not want burnt offerings and sacrifice but desires for us to love Him with all our heart, soul and mind (Matthew 22:37; Matthew 22:39) and we do this by living in obedience to Him (1Samuel 15:22).
In the same spirit as to how God desires for us to be His people, Paul hopes for us to be of the “same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” This also, however, completely falls in line with Paul’s instruction pertaining to marriage in 1 Corinthians 7:15 when he tells us that God has called us to peace. The context of 1 Corinthians 7:15 is one where the believer is told to allow the unbeliever to leave for the sake of keeping peace, etc.
It’s important to notice thus far that although we are commanded to be equally yoked, a’ la 2 Corinthians 6:14, we are given instruction on how to behave in circumstances where a man and woman are unequally yoked. The context of this scenario isn’t likely where a believer ignored instruction and married in spite of biblical instruction telling him/her not to but one where two unbelievers were married and one became converted, etc. In this situation, Paul is telling the believer that he or she shouldn’t divorce or separate because ultimately they may live in a manner and set an example so that their spouse may be saved.
The situation presented with the Quizzically Yoked couple is unique in the sense that we are dealing with equally yoked brethren that differ considerably on important doctrinal issues. I say “important” to make a distinction; they are “important” but not “essentials”. For the purpose of this writing, I will define essential as essential doctrines that one must believe in order to be saved; i.e. Jesus is God, Jesus made a penal substitutionary atonement on the behalf of the elect that was offered by grace through faith to anyone that would believe so that they may be reconciled unto God so that they may be in eternity with Jesus (they are a gift to the Son from the Father), as well as having a proper understanding and recognition of the Trinity, etc.
I said all of that to say this…ha-ha….
God has called us to live in peace. We, as believers, are to do everything that we can to live a life that gives God glory. We are to do whatever we can do to be of one like mind, like one of Christ and to use our conscience as a witness to our behavior. We should examine ourselves to make sure that we are living according to the faith to which we have been called, etc.
This couple needs to pray and seek the council of wise men that are in the faith to receive instruction. I don’t say this as a cop out but to follow biblical instruction. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will give guidance in what to do with a situation such as this.
I like that the couple has a heart to please God. I like that the potential pitfalls has posed to be a burden that has befallen on this couple’s heart and conscience, etc.
Given everything that I have said, I believe that if their conscience bears positive witness to being united in marriage that it would be permissible for the two to marry given their maturity in the faith but the deciding factors might rest on some contingencies.
Contingency 1; In a clear conscience, the couple knows that they will be able to live in peace and be of one mind in the image of Christ.
Contingency 2; The couple, in a clear conscience, will put in a full effort to live a life that will give God glory.
The stated contingencies may appear to be obvious but I think they get to the heart of the matter. Regardless of the love that they have for one another, if they can’t live and practice their faith together in unity with a clear conscience then they are perhaps not truly equally yoked, at least in the sense to being compatible marriage partners in the faith. If this turns out to be the case, it may be that they should remain in the state that they were in when God called them, a’ la 1 Corinthians 7:17-20.
May it all be for His glory,
Wade
Who among us have arrived at a perfect understanding? Who among us see all things clearly?
I mentioned to my Elders just recently that if today I were to meet the man I was at conversion, I would neither recognize him nor think very much of his doctrine.
Like Paul we are all on a journey toward maturity, and each of us take a very different path. It is true that some make faster progress than others, and some seem never to make any progress at all, but I am profoundly glad that God is longsuffering with his children and brings them along as they are able to bear.
The Bible commands that the believer is not to be unequally yoked with an unbeliever… So the question is not one of doctrine at all, but of faith. If these two deeply committed believers seek to build their marriage upon obedience to God’s Word, and trust our Sovereign God to bring each of them along according to his will and timing then their marriage not only can work, but will be blessed indeed.
Grace Always,
The letter is interesting as on the surface, it appears to be a question about marriage, but it truth it is a revelation on the conflict between things that come from God, and things that come from man.
Both agree on the word of God (given to man through the Holy Spirit), but not on the practice and theology of the protestant religion (created by man). Both should seek the truth given to the Apostles by Jesus and by those that personally knew the Apostles.
What about marriage? Does marriage come from God or from man? Since the beginning, God created man and woman for each other and blessed marriage. Jesus even sanctified marriage by miraculously turning water into wine at Cana.
Marriage is an icon of Christ and the church: As Christ gives Himself totally to and for His Church, so the husband is to give himself totally to and for his wife. As the Church, in turn, is subject to Christ, so the wife subjects herself to her husband. Thus the two become one in a life of mutual love and mutual subjection to each other in Christ. (See Ephesians 5:20-33)
Children born into a marriage with parents who attend other churches recognize the God created/man made conflict when they begin to refer to each denomination as “Mommy’s church” and “Daddy’s church.” When the marriage, like the church, is unified in what was given to man by God, then the children will simply note that it’s “God’s Church.”
Both will need to give up their personal (created by man) views and focus on instructions provided directly by God. Broken down, “Theology” is literally “God’s word.” They will find the Truth if they have ears to hear.
If Aimee believes what the Assemblies of God teaches, then she holds that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible and only inspired written word of God. I imagine Calvin, as a conservative Baptist, holds a similar view of Scripture.
Likewise, Aimee and Calvin both express a love for Jesus Christ and a desire to follow him. Spiritually, it sounds like they have a lot of common ground.
If they attend a Southern Baptist megachurch, they’ll hear the same kind of music that they’d hear at an Assemblies of God megachurch; and the messages may not be too terribly different.
When Paul spoke of being equally yoked there was only ONE denomination (if you will) –one Lord, one faith, one baptism and one God and Father who is over all. So when Paul said do not be unequally yoked, the expectation was that believers being yoked beleive the same doctrines–especially doctrines primary to the Gospel: God, sin, grace, faith, Christ, the Word, and also some ecclesiological practices (1Cor 11.16).
Given this, it is wisest and best to marry w/in one’s own denomination (an exception: you are burning w/ lust in a land where there are very few fish in the sea.)
Calvin and Aimmee, love is patient and love is kind. Sometimes Christians marry because their “love” is impatient and blind. I believe in God’s providence, as you walk in wisdom, He will bring someone more theologically and ecclesioligically fitting to be yoked, happier with and to better fruitiply with.
Will God pour out blessing on marriages that are not denominatinoally? Absolutely. God pours out his blessing on all kinds of things Christians do imperfectly (evangelism, church plants, parenting, etc.; but it doesn’t make it right, best or wisest.
The one-flessness of marriage requires that husband and wife go to one church.
I’d simply ask Aimee, “Are you willing to follow Calvin and submit to his leadership in this area. Are you willing and able to fit in with him?” That is the biblical calling of wife.
If you can, and are willing to study what he believes and grow toward him, I think the marriage, all else being rightly ordered, will work. If not, then based on what I read in Scripture and what I’ve seen lived out in the lives of friends, you’re headed for trouble. And adding children will intensify the situation exponentially.
A couple that is striving for oneness must be united in this central area of worship and church membership.
From the outset, now you aren’t married to your churches. If you need to find a “compromise” church for you both to attend, go for it. This is “submitting one to another” (Eph 5:21). Mere Christianity is much more rewarding (and liberating) than all the lines in the sand that denominations create.
I think you’d have a much simpler time answering your questions if 1) you didn’t hold to denominationalism so rigidly and 2) you didn’t view the husband as the “spiritual leader,” which I’m still searching to find in Scripture, though I was brought up always thinking it was there (seminary training helps you slice through what is denominational subcultural assumptions over-layed on a text and what is actually in the Scripture).
You are both disciples of Jesus, not a bride as a disciple of a husband. Jesus is always the spiritual leader in Scripture. He doesn’t get mediated to a wife through a husband when you get married. That would be a demotion and gross abuse of the priesthood of the believer.
You will both grow in your theology as you grow in your lives. Calvin may learn that tongues is alive and well and Aimee may learn that some of Calvinism is pretty smart (though some of it is pretty off-base and supersessionist too ;). And you will BOTH grow (not just her conforming to this world by conforming to her husband)… in some ways you’ll agree more in other ways you’ll agree less (even in issues you haven’t even considered doctrinally yet).
Give yourself space for change. It will happen. And when it’s healthy and smart, it is good. And let Jesus guide you and not some denomination and traditional pressures.
If you guys are equals (in spirit, emotional health, etc) and love each other, then get married. I wish my wife and I could spend time with you for then we’d get to the real heart and meaning of these questions that you won’t get here.
And I’d get advice from other places besides here. Southern Baptist deans are pretty one-sided (and even the fact that your question was raised here shows that Calvin already has the leg-up on getting his way with an answer–though he may not attend that). In a multitude of counselors, says the proverbs, there is safety. Don’t take all your counselors from the same pool.
@Dale Fincher,
“Don’t take all your counselors from the same pool.”
Where is that in scripture?
Grace & Peace,
W.
@Dale Fincher, Ephesians 5:22 answers the question of a husband’s spiritual leadership in the home: “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.” (ESV)
The Bible clearly teaches complementarianism … which includes the husband’s role in a marriage as the spiritual leader of the household (which includes his wife).
And none of the traditional five points of Calvinism (TULIP) are radically off-base … Do you refer to hyper-calvinism?
@ Wade Davis, do you need chapters and verses? “In a multitude of counselors, there is safety.” If we only seek council from all the same pool, we avoid the wise counsel of Solomon. If you ask Democrats all the questions, you’ll always get Democrat driven answers. Solomon says we are to seek safety in our counsel. As the simple illustration suggests, it isn’t safe to draw from the same pool. ;)
@Jordon, didn’t you see the verse I quoted above how everyone is to submit to one another? Let’s take the Bible seriously. The verse you quoted says nothing of spiritual leadership. You imported that. If you’re going to quote Scripture at least quote a verse that says what you want it to say. “The plain meaning of Scripture” is not spiritual leadership in that verse.
As for Calvinism, no I’m not talking about hypercalvinism. Again, read what I wrote. A short study of supersessionism gets at what I am saying. And I did say Calvnism has some smart things too. Be slow to speak, please, when you haven’t read what I wrote. I’m not here to pick a fight.
@Dale Fincher, Ok. I am willing to disagree on you about Ephesians 5:22. But in 1 Timothy 3:4, Paul writes of elders/overseers/pastors/whatever you would like to call “church leaders”, “He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive.” Now, you may say that “household” refers only to an elder’s children, but in v. 12 of this chapter (concerning deacons), Paul separates household and children: “Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.” Here, Paul is more explicit … wives are not children, but ARE part of “their own households.” Husbands should then manage their households–part of whom are their wives–and part of management is leadership.
And about Calvinism: I was merely trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. I don’t agree with all of Calvinism (particularly infant baptism and some of Calvin’s OT explanations), but I do agree with TULIP. Calvinism is such a loaded word, I didn’t know exactly what you meant. I did read what you wrote, which is why I asked what form or part or aspect of Calvinism to which you were referring. I am not seeking to pick a fight, either, brother, I was merely seeking a more full view of what you meant by some of your wording in your first post.
@Dale Fincher, I ask your forgiveness. I didn’t quite grasp your phrasing in your original post (about Calvinism).
As to Ephesians 5:22, that passage does teach the husband’s spiritual leadership in the home. Paul says in v. 24 for wives to “submit in everything to their husbands.” Everything would include spirituality wouldn’t it? Paul’s argument is clear in v. 23: “For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.”
I’m not here to pick a fight, either. Again, I ask your forgiveness for my misinterpretation of your comment about Calvinism. And concerning Ephesians 5:22-24, if you don’t agree with what I’ve written, please explain your views about this passage to me (which you claim to get from the Bible–I want the Bible to enlighten me, so please enlighten me with it about this if need be). Grace to you, brother.
It sounds to me like they have quite a lot going for them if they do decide to get married.
My husband and I shared the same faith when we were married. He’s still a faithful Mormon, but I converted to Christianity. The differences and vast and alarming, but our marriage is doing well despite the fact religion is very important to both of us.
I just have a few thoughts–
Absolutely, it is TOUGH if you go to two different churches (but Christians with so much in common might find a common church to worship and fellowship with).
It is very important for each person to speak to others (especially any children which may come along) with respect for the other’s perspective–even if they think it’s totally wrong. The best way to do this is to understand why they believe what they do. Could you answer the question, “Why does he/she believe that?” with anything worthwhile?
Because I married my husband believing in good faith our children would be raised Mormon, and I respect my husband’s leadership, they will be raised Mormon (aren’t you glad this isn’t your issue?). But, (here’s the point) he knows that when my children come up to me with questions, I will answer them honestly and thoroughly. A similar approach might be valuable in a situation like the letter entails.
I know that many people on both sides of the issue feel very strongly about the question of Calvinism and Arminianism, but it just doesn’t seem like such a huge stumbling block to me. They are both Christians. They are both faithful and passionate.
A good test for just how dividing the debate might be, is to ask if either believes the other isn’t actually saved. If one does believe the other isn’t saved, then I could see it being a huge issue. But if both feel the other is saved, even if they are wrong on this point, then it shouldn’t be devastating. Why not just share perspectives, maybe the occasional respectful debate, explain both views to any children (they’ll have to choose for themselves eventually anyways), and get on with loving God and each other?
@Rinda, What I find disturbing about their Arminian-Calvinist difference is the fundamental difference in viewing God and His glory. Aimee admitted that she believed the possibility of her genuinely losing her genuine salvation–that is a pretty big issue. Would Calvin want his kids exposed to what he views as non-biblical teaching from such a pervasive influence as their mother? (I know I wouldn’t.)
@Rinda,
In regard to the eternal security issue (though I prefer the term “perseverance/preservation of the saints”, as “eternal security” is too easily misunderstood), I agree that it’s important and makes a difference. Having said that, I’m not sure it’s the issue to end all issues. In terms of practical counsel, I’m confident both Aimee and Calvin would admonish their children to persevere in Christ and rely on His grace.
Having been in both Assemblies of God and Reformed settings, I’m convinced of the Reformed position. However, despite excesses on either the hyper-Calvinist or hyper-Arminian wings, a traditional Arminian/Wesleyan and a traditional Calvinist are both going to stress grace and perseverance (and yes, I realize I’m oversimplifying). I say this having grown up with two of the godliest parents I know (Arminian/Pentecostal) who rooted me in the love and grace of Christ, along with encouraging me to persevere in Him. While there are substantive differences between Aimee’s and Calvin’s positions here, I’m sure they could agree on that!
….or how about they sit at different tables and never talk to each other again…(cf. Galatians)
My husband/pastor and I just had a similar conversation. The bible only tells us who we are not to marry. After that consideration comes the questions of common sense, does the couple get along or are they always arguing? What are the commonalities and areas we do not have in common? There are many questions to be answered before this couple marries. If these are already areas of contention in a relationship and are not resolved, they will only add to the stress of striving to become one in Christ. Two sinners will be getting married, add to that the polar opposites of theology and you have a marriage starting with too much dissension. I can speak of this personally. My husband and I went to a wesleyan/arminian college for four years where we were spoon fed armenian doctrines. We came to the doctrines of grace in our second pastorate where God taught us through his Holy Scriptures what these precious doctrines mean. We had other teachers==puritans, but we fed on God’s Word day and night as we struggled to understand where God was leading us. We are now on the same page, but it was not easy. To marry or not marry? I’m not sure I would recommend marriage if this couple were in my husband’s office for marriage counseling. This is a tough one.
@Jody,
It’s a very tough one.
I think there is far too little faith in the Clarity of Scripture in a lot of these comments!
I think if both Aimee and Calvin are willing to submit to Scripture then they will come to one mind on the issues. (Eph 4:11-14). (Aimee will end up becoming a Calvinist and Calvin will reject the belief that the bible teaches that certain gifts have ceased:)
So I think they should both do some serious study and dialogue of why they each believe what they believe and be willing to be corrected by the other if the other’s position is more faithful to Scripture.
I think it is a bad idea to just avoid your current differences - don’t you both believe that the Scriptures are clear on these issues? (if not then you have no cause for fuss about the others belief).
So the question for both of you is: “Are you both willing to change your views if Scripture teaches that you are wrong. Are you both open to that possibility?”
Calvin: you should read some Wayne Grudem, Sam Storms and listen to John Piper’s sermon series on miraculous gifts at DG website.
Aimee: you should ask Calvin which are the best books to read on Calvinism.
@henrybish, I just got back from T4G a couple of weeks ago. There are many dear brothers and sisters in Christ who hold to the continuance of certain spiritual gifts, but I disagree (with somewhat of an open mind, though). Soteriology (Calvinism) is a much more essential issue on which there should be agreement. I think disagreement over gifts (I’d classify it under Ecclesiology, personally) is a less essential issue on which there is more wiggle room for healthy disagreement.
(And I agree, we shouldn’t assume our denominations to always be right.)
One thing I would *not* suggest doing: don’t think that by joining a church that whitewashes the issues under a “Mere Christian” type of banner, such as Calvary Chapel, that you are not going to have to deal with the disagreements. I’m not saying you should not join a CC (we did); but rather, if you do join, recognize that they do hold a specific view and this view will come out in a hundred ways on a hundred different occasions.
For example, Calvary claims to be neutral on the question of Calvinism/Arminianism. But any honest observer who knows the issues has to admit that they come down pretty thoroughly Arminian. Every Biblical text is exegeted from a purely Arminian viewpoint; all the classical Arminian responses to Romans 9 are listed, but none of the Calvinist understandings of Matthew 23:37; John 3:16 is mustered in support of one but John 6:44 is not taken in support of the other; Acts 7:51 is used to argue against Calvinism’s “I” when it actually has nothing to do with it; and so on.
If we honestly admit our differences, we can work through them; but sweeping them under the rug does not help anybody.
p.s. none of us can just assume that our denomination is right on every point.
Personally, I have no problems with this type of marriage provided that both Calvin and Aimee can agree on a church they can both attend and bring their family into.
The husband going to one church and the wife to another is just going to lead to a multitude of problems.
I didn’t read all the comments, but I’m convinced that these theological differences will result in different worldviews when the rubber meets the road.
Primarily, marriage is a picture of Christ and the church and if the two cannot agree on what that picture looks like, then they will have two different views of marriage. There are dozens of other issues that will arise in marriage that will very likely be different as well: suffering, raising children, chruch membership, divorce, and the list goes on and on.
I would highly discourage entering a marriage with someone who has a different understanding of these things.
I also wouldn’t leave it at that. I’m currently counseling a young couple in a similar situation by helping each of them develop a Biblical worldview, so that they will be on the same page when entering the marriage covenant.
In my opinion in spite of your differences, you will need to compromise. I say this for the sake of your marriage, as well as any children you may have.
I will leave most of the issues that you mentioned alone, as others have addressed them. However I strongly believe that you need to reach common ground concerning the church you attend. Whether you go to one spouse’s church and not the other, or even decide together to look into attending an entirely different church–an excellent idea, by the way–I urge you to make a decision. In the long run I do not believe you will find it either fair or comfortable to switch churches every (other) week.
I would just be thrilled that both are believers! That isn’t always the case these days. If both are committed to the Lotd and share the same values and ideas concerning being a family, I would see no major problems. It is rare to find a couple who agree on all theological points and you could search a lifetime without finding that ‘perfect’ mate.
If the church in N. America were undergoing any sort of persecution at all, issues like this between believers would be laughable. It’s a sad statement of where our priorities are that we would obsess over such trivial issues - even to the point of feeling like believers potentially can’t marry each other.
Sadly, reminds me of this joke (cribbed from here… http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/359)… and when issues like the one outlined in the letter come up, this is - again sadly - how the world sees us:
“I was walking along when I saw a man standing on a bridge getting ready to jump. I tried to find a reason to dissuade him, and asked:
Are you religious? Yes, he replied. Great, so am I.
Christian or Buddhist? Christian, he said.
Episcopalian or Baptist? Baptist, he responded.
Baptist Church of God, or Baptist Church of the Lord? Baptist Church of God.
Are you Original Baptist Church of God or Reformed Baptist Church of God? Reformed Baptist Church of God.
Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation 1879 or Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation 1915? Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation 1915 was the answer.
Die heretic scum, I said. And pushed him off.”
@E.G.,
Interesting thought about the persecution. I still don’t think it would be laughable. There is a significant difference between sharing a foxhole with someone during trouble times and sharing a bed with someone in marriage. Besides, if we were experiencing persecution in American we would probably heed Paul’s admonition in 1 Cor 7:26 and Calvin would “remain as he is,” a single because of the present distress (persecution).
I also think your anecdote, while humorous, is quite off the mark. Marriage is a one flesh, extremely intimate relationship that presses people together revealing their flaws, ie sin. I don’t think anyone who thinks they shouldn’t rush head long into marriage without careful consideration because of their differences is in anyway suggesting that we not share Christ and the hope we have in Him with someone who is suffering and in need of saving because of their religious affiliation.
John Piper went over something similar over his ask John Piper a few years ago. I remember reading it and finding it helpful. Here’s what he said:
“February 15, 2008
The following is an edited transcription of the audio. (From Ask John Piper)
Should I date someone whose theology is different?
Don’t ask the minimalistic question. If you only want to know how little you have to agree on together in order to move forward, then you’re asking the wrong question.
There should be a robust and common enthusiasm and joy about the gospel. You should also have a similar understanding of the gospel so that you’re not always tricking each other by your words. You want to make sure that you have the same definitions for the words that you use.
So start at the center, and want the most.
It is difficult to rear your children and to worship together if you disagree on the center of the gospel and on the big issues of God’s sovereignty. This involves the centrality of the cross, the substitutionary atonement, the inerrancy of the Scriptures, and the role of God in sin and suffering. You have to be able to nurture each other in ways that don’t offend the other, and that flows from your view of the sovereignty of God.
So if one of you believes that God is not sovereign over the troubles of your life and over the salvation of the lost, but the other one does, then it is going to be very difficult for you in worship, devotion, and child rearing.
I would be very hesitant, frankly, to move forward in a relationship where there are deeply rooted differences about God’s sovereignty, the gospel, or the inerrancy of Scripture. In regards to more marginal things, however, I wouldn’t make them a criteria.”
I agree with Andrea. It might not be a bad idea to look into Sovereign Grace churches… Just keep praying and trusting the LORD above all else.
@Elijah Elkins,
Dear Brother,
Only because I have read so many responses so far that suggested trying “Sovereign Grace” churches do I ask you: How would this help? The Sovereign Grace family (which I love!) affirms both the eternal security of the believer, and the continuation of sign gifts. These are the very issues that seem to define this couple’s disagreement. It seems that attending a Sovereign Grace church would appease neither of them!
Rejoicing in Our Christ,
ADD
Even though I consider myself a Calvinist with an “open but cautious” view of charismatic gifts I would not make secondary doctrinal issues as a roadblock to marriage. As long as both uphold the inspiration and authority of Scripture, unswervingly believe in the fundamentals of the historic Christian faith, understand what the gospel is all about (i.e., that the blood of Christ is the only means to eternal salvation), and both have a desire to love and serve the Lord then I don’t see why they shouldn’t get married. Though I strongly uphold the doctrines of grace I’m not one of those fanatics that believe there will be no non-Calvinists in heaven.
“We know it’s not right to marry an unbeliever (we agree on that part of 1 Corinthians!). But is it okay to marry a fellow believer in another denomination? If we do marry, should we continue to go to our separate churches? Is that unsubmissive of Aimee to follow her conscience to be in a church that doesn’t, as she sees it, “forbid to speak in tongues” (1 Cor. 14:39)? And when there are children, what should we do then: raise them in the Bible church or in the Pentecostal church, or carry them back and forth?”
1. It is ok to marry a fellow believer in another denomination IF the two believers in question agree about fundamental doctrines, among which are predestination.
2. If you marry, you should go to the same church. (An interesting possibility would be a Sovereign Grace church–a mix of Baptist soteriology with Pentecostal charisma.)
3. It would be unsubmissive, but she should not be in a situation where she would have to be in a church she disagrees with.
4. If you marry and then have children, you should raise them in one church, preferably the husband’s.
Yes, marriage would produce theological strife. Your beliefs are so fundamentally different–five point Calvinist and five point Arminian–that for the sake of both of your individual future children, you should not marry. Theological strife would show itself all too easily. A 5-point Calvinist should not marry a 5-point Arminian if for no other sake than for the sake of the children and for the sake of marital health.
@Jordan,
I don’t know how to reply to your last paragraph. Apart from the context, I would just automatically assume you’re being sarcastic. However, it seems that you genuinely believe this. Probably one of the most unnuanced takes on this complicated issue.
@Jordan, (Actually to Mark, the @Jordan was automatic):
You’re right; I do genuinely believe that people so different in their theological belief systems should not marry. An unequal yoke is much more than saved-unsaved. It also applies theologically–a “strong” Christian shouldn’t unequally yoke with a “weaker” Christian. Nor, in my opinion, should a Calvinist yoke with an Arminian because of those differences. For me at least, such a vast theological difference would amount to an unequal yoke. (Then again, I feel called to full-time pastoral ministry, so I have to be particularly careful in terms of whom I would consider for marriage. … Pastors are, after all, held to a stricter judgment, James 3:1.)
I lived this exact scenario a year ago.
For those of you who like to read ahead, we broke off the relationship.
The reasons were multifaceted and, like much of this discussion, complicated and nuanced but in the end obvious for me at least and came down to a couple key issues, one of which I’ll share here, praying in tongues.
My girl friend was adamant that his was a critical component of her faith and I would need to embrace it and support her in it if not eventually practice it myself. So I started off by searching for what scriptures speak to the topic. I’ve been a serious student of the Word for about a decade, but I’m only in my 30’s so I might have missed it or overlooked it based on my upbringing. Based on her conviction it was all throughout scripture and obvious but I didn’t find any clear scriptural guidelines around the practice of praying in tongues. 1 Cor 14:14 is the only explicit mention of praying in tongues and is a simple statement, not a command and doesn’t include any detailed instruction. Our primary instruction on prayer comes from Jesus in the response to the disciples question. “Lord, teach us to pray…” would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to instruct his disciples on the use of the heavenly language, but instead we have an example of earthly language.
So I asked her because I wanted her to, from scripture, show me clearly how she came up with her doctrinal stance that there was a way to pray in tongues. At the time I was genuinely curious as I recognize my very limited understanding of God through his Word and didn’t want to miss something God commands or expects. If I could be convinced from scripture to seek the experience I would have no problem seeking the experience.
Huge red flag for me. Her defense was “prove to me that praying in tongues is condemned in scripture.” She said that my perspective that praying in tongues wasn’t in scripture was as much a doctrine as her position that said it was.
So for us it boiled down to a discussion about the way we establish Christian doctrine (practice) in our personal lives and in the church.
We establish doctrine by clear command, instruction, simple inference, with clear examples, not by a single passing mention in a single verse that has questionable context and interpretation. The onus was not on me to show that scripture condemned the practice, but for her to show clear command, instruction or inference with examples from scripture, something this is impossible to do with praying in tongues.
As a side effect of this investigation it came to light that the specific practice of praying in tongues had radically different modes, methods, and meanings depending on who I studied or asked. Once I scratched the surface I found out that she had one understand, her local AoG church and pastor had a different understanding, and the broader AoG denomination had yet another understanding (who prays: human spirit or Holy Spirit; to whom is prayer offered: God or H/S; language used: heavenly language or groanings etc).
If the AoG can’t get it straight, how am I supposed to seek this gifting (never mind the fact that I didn’t have to seek for any of my other spiritual gifts and saw scripture as just expecting me to obediently use them in the equipping of Christ’s church)? It seemed to me a lot like 1 Cor 15:29 where there are some who have established doctrine around a brief mention of a practice and when you dig in you find opinion and variance as to the mode, meaning, and reasons because its a human invention with human understandings and not something clearly commanded by God through His Word for us to practice in the NT Church.
As a side note, through my study of spiritual gifts and doctrines I became very convicted of the sin of not using my gift of teaching in the local church and by doing so was robbing the local Body of Christ–causing it harm and reducing its witness in the world. I repented and am now by God’s grace leading a small group.
So my encouragement to Calvin is make sure you dig in, ask lots of questions, think critically, define your terms (not all the words you two use have the same meanings) and be sensitive to change first through your study of God’s word, don’t try or expect her to change first, or at all, in which case, like me you have your answer.
@Just Like Calvin,
Thank you for sharing this with us.
God bless you Aimee and Calvin. This is difficult but not insurmountable. It is really important that each of you respect the others beliefs. No name calling or “how can you possibly believe that?” nonsense. In my opinion it would be best if you could find a church you could agree to attend together. Each of you would probably have to compromise somewhere to do that. I was raised in the Catholic charismatic movement and married a man who was raised in a fundamentalist Bible church. We have been happily married for over 30 years. At first I went to his church and after a number of years it was his decision for us to leave that and we now attend an Assembly of God church which we raised our children in. Thats a long story but we had to find a church which practiced love within the church and to the community, and treated people well and was not ingrown, well, a lot of things. Anyway, locally that is what is best for us. In our current AG church (and each one is different, not promoting AG at all) there is the emphasis on the presence and omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent character of God to make the Catholic happy and the emphasis on the Bible and evangelism to make the fundamentalist happy.
I think the husband really does have to lead - in love of course.
I tried to follow the example of my godly mother. When she married my dad way back when, she was Lutheran and he was Catholic. Back in the day, he couldn’t even receive communion after their marriage. But one day when she was praying about it she saw a vision of Mary. Mary didn’t speak to her, just smiled and made her feel that it was okay and she soon took instructions to become Catholic and served, loved and worshiped God as a happy Catholic. She never regretted following her husband’s spiritual leading.
I guess my question for Calvin and Aimee is if they could in good faith be active members of the same church. If not, I don’t think they should marry.
I believe that the eternal security of the believer is foundational for the gospel. If someone does not believe that, I don’t think they believe the same gospel as I, and thus we’d be unequally yoked.
Most importantly, Calvin and Aimee need to seek the counsel of their elders. What is their advice? Are they willing to follow it, even if it’s hard?
@Ronnica,
Bringing in the practical side is a great point, one I can expand on a little further.
Beyond the simple conscious perspective there is a very real practical concern. Most churches, at least ones you would probably want to attend and become involved in, require formal membership before you can serve. Formal membership typically require agreement with a doctrinal statement and doctrinal statements often include the church’s stance on spiritual gifts.
So a more conservative reformed church will probably not want continuationists as members, leaving Aimee with the choice of sinning by lying about her convictions as a continuationist or sinning by not using her spiritual gifts to serve in the local church.
Flip it around and Calvin has a problem. If they attend a more charismatic church, he will either have to lie about his conviction as a cesassionist or not agree with their doctrinal statement, not be a member, and therefore not service.
Lets you think the quick answer to this is just to find a “Sovereign Grace” church and be done with it, up until very recently they were clear in their doctrinal statement that cessionists were welcome to visit but were not welcome to serve in the church.
I searched for the article on their site but it appears it has been taken down. Maybe cessionists are now welcome to join and fully serve in the “Sovereign Grace” churches? I would definitely investigate before walking the isle and come out the other side unable to serve.
One option is simply for BOTH Calvin and Aimee to commit to studying Scripture and to reach a point of agreement. It IS possible. Considering they are capable of dating in spite of their vast differences, I’d guess neither may have studied their perspective doctrines in an in-depth matter. I believe nothing just because my friends do - but there’s a reason a lot of close friends and ministry partners come to similar perspectives eventually.
Another issue is to figure out which doctrines really matter to both of them. For example, I have an opinion on eschatology but it’s not at all a big deal to me. I could easily go to a church or marry someone with a different view. But some staunch dispensationalists, for example, would not consider doing so. Some issues simply matter more to certain people (tongues, for example).
I, like Calvin, was in a similar situation a year ago and my wife very similar to Aimee.
We got married. We’ve been married for nearly a year now, and while it has been somewhat difficult for me, it has been MORE difficult for my wife, because of practical reasons. There are plenty of people who have “on paper” disagreements but practically work things out every day.
I do not regret my decision to this day. My wife, on the other hand, has pointed out several times that this is the case because I do not have to submit to her leadership.. because she is supposed to submit to my leadership therein lies the most significant of our problems.
She doesn’t know how to practically “follow” someone who doesn’t necessarily even BELIEVE what she holds most dear next to the cross. If she wants to exercise her gifts will I mock, jeer, deconstruct, or even stare quizzically-minded? I did at first. Why? Because in my “camp” and yours unfortunately there is a lot of cynicism and skepticism that is laced with our wonderful “biblical” and systematic theology.
After much repentance, and definitely not enough prayer, I decided to read good Reformed charismatic resources on the issue; not just the usual “firing squad” of resources on Benny, T.D. Jakes, or the like; but GOOD presentations by people many would not even know held to what is often called a “3rd Wave” understanding of the gifts. Most of them you would agree on in many areas already. Men like:
John Piper, Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem, CJ Mahaney, Josh Harris, Adrian Warnock…etc. These men are no lightweights. In order to be a good student of my wife, I have taken these guys on head first. And, much to my surprise, most of their exegesis and testimonies are remarkably encouraging. That’s not to say you capitulate..
Leadership is not about “lordship”, it’s about self-sacrifice. If you choose to marry Aimee you will inherently sacrifice some things; one of which will be (initially or forever) the “continuity” of a same/similar partnership. Instead you will have a “hybrid” marriage of sorts that will bring with it great challenges (like on the spot OT marriages) and great rewards as you are able to minister to a much greater breadth of people in the body.
One question in particular you will have to ask yourself before you make the decision to proceed into marriage is “Can you self-sacrificially (not in convictions but in methods) lay down your “dreams” of a Reformed cessationist church and be OPEN but cautious (NOT Cautious but hardly open) to a Reformed charismatic congregation. And Aimee must ask herself whether she can follow someone who may not lead her further in what she holds dearest (now or never).
And after reading this article by Dr. Mohler: http://www.albertmohler.com/2005/07/12/a-call-for-theological-triage-and-christian-maturity/
Then make it a point and a lifestyle to put aside whatever is tertiary in you both and see if you can press on together in love, self-sacrifice, and MERCY. Don’t take your eyes off the cross. Please. If you do, you will end up in such squalor and mess that you will wish you had read “This Momentary Marriage” by John Piper before you got into it.
While we live in the fields, and long for the streams, and flowers, and trees, we must not forget that in this world there will be cow patties. But go there only to deal with the mess in each of you, and remember that that is not all there is to this life. There are still streams, and flowers, and trees. But are the cow patties in each of your lives too much for either of you to wade through each day of the rest of your lives? By God’s grace you can do it, but it will present the most challenging and rewarding times of your life. Go in grace. ~Similar Situation
Has Dr. Moore followed up on this blog yet? I am curious to hear his insight!
Dear Calvin and Aimee;
To start - let me declare my bias: I am a 3rd-generation Southern Baptist, a Reformed Evangelical, and I have been joyfully married for 28 years to a “charismatic pentecostal,” reared in the Assemblies of God. My husband and I are both currently active in a Reformed congregation, of the Presbyterian denomination.
Marriage is unchanging faithfulness within change…as God’s grace is everlasting and unrelenting despite our failings and circumstances. If we — as God’s People, and as covenant, marriage partners, focus on our First Love — we can find joyful, permanent union despite theological differences and the changes that are inevitable in this life. This does not need to diminish our passionate love of Christ or theology or doctrinal practices…
Many (including the Rev. Billy Graham and his wife) have found fulfilling marriage and Christian mission at separate congregations / denominations, although this is difficult.
You will face some unique challenges — as you face critical faith milestones for your children — especially Baptism and Holy Communion. If you cannot come to agreement or compromise on these fundamental beliefs — you are setting yourselves up for heartache. If you can accept differences and changes within the context of your First Love for Christ — and your covenant faithfulness to one another — you can find love, joy and challenge as you grow together in your faith and marriage.
If you make the choice to marry — never second-guess, keep sight of your First Love — and find congregation(s) that will support you in fulfilling your Calling to each other and to God’s Kingdom.
God Bless…
…Trust me, I am Calvinist and I am married to a Charismatic/Five Fold/Word Faith husband and it is dividing our marriage. The differences are too different and as much in love as someone thinks they are, five or more years later the little issues will be huge. I honestly don’t know if we will make it….the differences are vast not just little….there is too big a gap between Pentacostal beliefs and Calvinism…even more so if one doesn’t believe the Bible is finished and that God is doing a New Thing and still giving revelation…and on and on it goes……
god is love and love is the one truly good thing granted to us as humans if i loved some one trully in this life regardless of what it cost in the next. then even if it was deemed sinfull or the order i was born in to felt it inapropriat i could not help my self from not obeying the human side of order that rules over me remember god is love and he grants us love in many ways and forms but as men there is not much to replase the true love of our sisters whom we are made for. regardless of all things except the true giver of love. the one god almighty.