Women, Stop Submitting to Men
— Monday, December 5th, 2011 —
Those of us who hold to so-called “traditional gender roles” are often assumed to believe that women should submit to men. This isn’t true.
Indeed, a primary problem in our culture and in our churches isn’t that women aren’t submissive enough to men, but instead that they are far too submissive.
First of all, it just isn’t so that women are called to submit while men are not. In Scripture, every creature is called to submit, often in different ways and at different times. Children are to submit to their parents, although this is certainly a different sort of submission than that envisioned for marriage. Church members are to submit to faithful pastors (Heb. 13:17). All of us are to submit to the governing authorities (Rom. 13:1-7; 1 Pet. 2:13-17). Of course, we are all to submit, as creatures, to our God (Jas. 4:7).
And, yes, wives are called to submit to their husbands (Eph. 5:22; 1 Pet. 3:1-6). But that’s just the point. In the Bible, it is not that women, generally, are to submit to men, generally. Instead, “wives” are to submit “to your own husbands” (1 Pet. 3:1).
Too often in our culture, women and girls are pressured to submit to men, as a category. This is the reason so many women, even feminist women, are consumed with what men, in general, think of them. This is the reason a woman’s value in our society, too often, is defined in terms of sexual attractiveness and availability. Is it any wonder that so many of our girls and women are destroyed by a predatory patriarchy that demeans the dignity and glory of what it means to be a woman?
Submitting to men in general renders it impossible to submit to one’s “own husband.” Submission to one’s husband means faithfulness to him, and to him alone, which means saying “no” to other suitors.
Submission to a right authority always means a corresponding refusal to submit to a false authority. Eve’s submission to the Serpent’s word meant she refused to submit to God’s. On the other hand, Mary’s submission to God’s word about the child within her meant she refused to submit to Herod’s. God repeatedly charges his Bride, the people of Israel, with a refusal to submit to him because they have submitted to the advances of other lovers. The freedom of the gospel means, the apostle tells us, that we “do not submit again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal. 5:1).
Despite the promise of female empowerment in the present age, the sexual revolution has given us the reverse. Is it really an advance for women that the average high-school male has seen images of women sexually exploited and humiliated on the Internet? Is it really empowerment to have more and more women economically at the mercy of men who freely abandon them and their children, often with little legal recourse?
Is this really a “pro-woman” culture when restaurant chains enable men to pay to ogle women in tight T-shirts while they gobble down chicken wings? How likely is it that a woman with the attractiveness of Henry Kissinger will obtain power or celebrity status in American culture? What about the girl in your community pressured to perform oral sex on a boyfriend, what is this but a patriarchy brutal enough for a Bronze Age warlord?
In the church it is little better. Too many of our girls and young women are tyrannized by the expectation to look a certain way, to weigh a certain amount, in order to gain the attention of “guys.”
Additionally, too many predatory men have crept in among us, all too willing to exploit young women by pretending to be “spiritual leaders” (2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2). Do not be deceived: a man who will use spiritual categories for carnal purposes is a man who cannot be trusted with fidelity, with provision, with protection, with the fatherhood of children. The same is true for a man who will not guard the moral sanctity of a woman not, or not yet, his wife.
We have empowered this pagan patriarchy. Fathers assume their responsibility to daughters in this regard starts and stops in walking a bride down an aisle at the end of the process. Pastors refuse to identify and call out spiritually impostors before it’s too late. And through it all we expect our girls and women to be submissive to men in general, rather than to one man in particular.
Women, sexual and emotional purity means a refusal to submit to “men,” in order to submit to your own husband, even one whose name and face you do not yet know. Your closeness with your husband, present or future, means a distance from every man who isn’t, or who possibly might not be, him.
Your beauty is found not in external (and fleeting) youth and “attractiveness” but in the “hidden person of the heart” which “in God’s sight is very precious” (1 Pet. 3:3-4). And it will be beautiful in the sight of a man who is propelled by the Spirit of this God.
Sisters, you owe no submission to Hollywood or to Madison Avenue, or to those who listen to them. Your worth and dignity cannot be defined by them. Stop comparing yourselves to supermodels and porn stars. Stop loathing your body, or your age. Stop feeling inferior to vaporous glamor. You are beautiful.
Sisters, there is no biblical category for “boyfriend” or “lover,” and you owe such designation no submission. In fact, to be submissive to your future husband you must stand back and evaluate, with rigid scrutiny, “Is this the one who is to come, or is there another?” That requires an emotional and physical distance until there is a lifelong covenant made, until you stand before one who is your “own husband.”
Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands as unto the Lord. Yes and Amen. But, women, stop submitting to men.
119 Responses to “Women, Stop Submitting to Men”
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“On the other hand, Mary’s submission to God’s word about the child within her meant she refused to submit to Herod’s.”
? Sorry, this is rather weak. Mary wasn’t being tempted by Herod, she just joined her husband in running away from him because he was a maniacal murderer. You were stretching too hard for someone Mary “refused to submit to” so you could make a nice parallel, but sometimes there just isn’t a perfect parallel. However, you did have a nice idea of comparing Mary with Eve, which of course has a long tradition.
@yankeegospelgirl, I think you misunderstood the sentence, it had nothing to do with temptation, and everything to do with submission. When Mary conceived through the Holy Spirit, she was still unmarried, and she still had an obligation to submit to the authorities at that time, mainly the Roman government and Herod, unless that submission was in direct conflict with her submission to God, which in this case it was. She married Joseph after she conceived, and both of them fled to Egypt after Herod started his killing spree.
@yankeegospelgirl,
She (and her husband) refused to submit to the authority that was over her (that authority that decreed that her baby boy was to be killed)…. its really that simple of a parallel.
@yankeegospelgirl,
I agree! I think a better comparison would have been Moses Mother refusing to murder him at the Pharoah’s command.
The article is awesome though!
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this. I am sending this on to all of my friends.
@Lindsay George,
I second your gratitude. Dr. Moore, thank you so much for writing this. I found your words to be so healing and helpful in directing us toward God’s Word regarding submission. Through this post, the Lord has healed some of my past injuries and has helped me to more clearly discern ways in which I’m sojourning in this world and reflecting the Gospel of Christ through my marriage. I too shared this post with single and married ladies I’m currently ministering to. Dr. Moore, may His grace and peace abound to you, your family, and your church! …and to all of you reading, I pray your hearts be filled with anticipation and worship and thanksgiving for the manifold forgiveness we have been given in Christ Jesus, as we His Bride prepare to celebrate Immanuel, God with us!
I find no fault in your assessment or argument. The difficulty, as I see it in addition is that not only are we women misguided in our understanding of submission, we are also lacking strong, godly men (husbands) to submit to. I personally have stumbled in my thinking in this area and have sought a place to land on the subject biblically. Your article’s assessment is as close as I’ve been able to come to a right, scriptural understanding. It’s clearer now, although it’s not easier to know how to submit to even when they refuse their roles as spiritual leaders. Thank you Dr. Moore.
@Lorretta Stembridge, I’ve had difficulty with this as well, but there is an answer in the Bible - submit to your husbands as unto the Lord, anyway, and be a helper suitable for him at the same time. You help your husband by helping him to remember he is accountable to God for his leadership in the home, for his “husbanding” of you, and you trust God to work out the lines of authority. When my husband is not behaving in a way that a godly husband would, and I have no desire to submit to him (e.g., where submitting would cause me to sin), then I tell him that I would like very much to submit to him on this, but to do so would be wrong; I tell him that my understanding of scripture is (whatever it is on that issue), and that I believe God is calling me to submit to Him (God). Then I ask (in love, because I care for my husband and want the best for him) which he would rather I do. His answer to that question depends on who he wants to please more (himself or God) and then my husband is accountable to God for the consequences. I, meanwhile, entrust my soul to my faithful Creator in doing what is right. There is a wonderful book that helped me in this = Bunny Wilson’s LIBERATED THROUGH SUBMISSION. Great reading for a strong-willed woman, I think.
Thanks for reminding us of the biblical standard and not the world’s in raising/encouraging young women for the gospel.
Excellent blog, appreciated it. Also appreciated Loretta’s comment. I would also add to her thought that i have observed too many Christian men leverage Eph 5:22-24 without truly living Eph 5:25-33 and don’t think the former can be removed from the latter. . .
@Carl Kincaid, I was about to make that point but you hit the nail on the head. If men live Eph 5:25-33 then they become the godly husbands the women can safely submit themselves to because the husband has first submitted himself to Christ and to his bride. it’s all about ultimately submitting to Christ and living according to God’s standard, not Madison avenue’s or Hollywood’s or the magazines at the checkout stand’s. God created men and women in His image, man and women he created them to be partners inlife, not to be objectes used by the others
@Carl Kincaid,
That’s a good point but a slippery slope.
It’s easy for a man to say “I’ll treat her the way ‘I’m supposed to’ when she starts submitting to my God Given Authority!”
It’s easy for a woman to say “I’ll submit to him the way ‘I’m supposed to’ when he starts living up to the God Given Responsibilities he should be!”
I think there is much success available to those of us living in an unbalanced marriage that is still founded on love of God and love of eachother, even if the other Godly aspects are lacking, so long as we gather the Faith required to step out in to our individual call in the relationship and prayerfully allow God to work on our partner.
On the other hand, choosing to ignore the call God has put on your own heart until He “answers your prayers” and changes the heart/attitude/actions of your partner is a losing proposition.
The submission of a wife to her own husband would be no problem at all if men would obey Eph. 5:25 & 31
“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;”
“For this cause shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.”
My Godly wife of 59 years has always known I would die for her if necessary to protect her. Since I have faced drunk soldiers with loaded AK47’s in Congo, this is more than an academic point, though, thankfully she was not with me the 2 times this happened.
Roy F. Dearmore, Th.B., M.D.
@Joel
I agree with you. My point was only that the two could not be assessed (nor commanded) in a vacuum, and i think that aligns with you. But thanks to both you and David for your thoughts.
@Joel Hallet,
I agree completely. We answer to God about how we live and love as His disciples. I will not find myself standing before His throne with leg to stand on if my argument is, “Well, God, I would have loved her like you love the church but she just isn’t submitting well.”
And for the argument that submission wouldn’t be an issue if the men were godly, that is also just not true.
Christ loves us this way and look at our response. Why, if we struggle in this with Jesus would we fair better in a derivative relationship?
Good article. I think we too often read Eph 5:22 and forget 5:21,22-33. Indeed, there is more said about husbands loving and sacrificing for their wives–giving up their desires in favor of their wife–than there is about wives submitting to their husbands. Personally, I think if husbands did a lot more of the “giving up” and “sacrificing” we’d have a lot less issues with the “wives submit” part.
Dr. Moore, this brings concise clarity and encouragement to godly girls and women in our local churches who are pursuing biblical womanhood! Thanks
My husband and I incorporated Ephesians 5 into our wedding vows. But I have to say, even as I submit to my husband, I do find myself falling into the trap of trying to submit to the authority of every man in my church, just because they are men. This is a great reminder that I do not have to do that.
Well, I have to admit you lay out the role of females and marriage in Christianity quite clearly.
I feel the need to draw a clear distinction between this view and feminism as a whole. Yes, because feminism is somewhat amorphous it’s difficult to define exactly what it *is*. However, it should be perfectly evident that feminism *is not* certain things and one of these things is a worldview that has any room, whatsoever, for an institutionalized patriarchy.
I’m not sure that Christianity deserves to be commended for placing each woman under just one man rather than all men.
I’d be interested to hear a clear enunciation of exactly what is expected when you talk about the submission of a woman to her husband (and for a woman without a husband, to her potential husband).
As far as I understand it, the only difference between submission and coercion is consent. Both involve the subversion of one individual’s agency (a concept similar, if not identical, to Free Will) by another individual. I doubt any feminist, on reflection, would consider worthwhile the replacement of a patriarchy where all males have privilege over all females with a patriarchy where each female must always submit directly to a single male (either a real or imaginary husband or father).
@Nicholas Searcy,
Hi Nicholas! I completely understand where you’re coming from. When I was a younger Christian, I had a huge problem with this. Why? Because I’ve seen “submission” abused and twisted so often. I’ve seen too many men who expected their wives to do whatever they wanted without giving anything in return. That word “submission” just made me cringe.
Until I saw it done right.
As I met more and more believing couples who really tried to live out biblical marriage, I realized that in a relationship in which the husband and wife BOTH constantly humble themselves before God and submit to HIM, their relationship with each other is unbelievably loving, sacrificing, and full of joy. Obedience to God, and God alone, in everything, is what produces a mutually loving and serving relationship.
But that’s the thing: Some men have grown up believing that their wives should submit to them, but that it doesn’t matter if they submit to God.
As some people have mentioned above, we have to take Ephesians 5:21 into account as well as the rest of the passage. What follows as far as instructions for Christian households are concerned is the ways in which each spouse is to serve the other, but BOTH are to serve. The wife is to submit, BUT the husband is to give himself up for her just as Christ gave himself up for the church, meaning that he devotes his life to her and takes care of her, “washing her in the word” (encouraging her and keeping her accountable in her walk with the Lord), and leaving his own family that he might be with her.
I love submitting to Christ. It delights my heart, because I know that when I submit to him, I experience the deepest love I could ever know, and I know he always has my best interests at heart. I feel secure in Christ, even if he takes me to the most dangerous corner of the world, or even if he takes me through an incredibly trying time, because I know he knows and loves me fully and deeply.
If a husband is constantly seeking Christ and spending time in the word, and seeking to love and care for his wife with all his heart, it is a joy and a delight to submit to him, it is liberating and fulfilling. Just as Christ did, he does NOT in fact lord any privilege over her, but instead humbles himself as one who has surrendered his own agency to God.
Is not submission among fallen sinners, even if, hopefully, redeemed, a matter of checks and balances” You almost seem to suggest as much by the title of your blog, “Women stop submitting to men.” Sometimes the Bible tells the man to do what the woman says. E.g., Sarah telling Abraham what to do about Hagar.
@Dr. James Willingham, true that.
Yes, not all women submit to all men. But neither is a wife’s submission to her husband unqualified. She still has her own mind and her own conscience, with which, in submission to the Lord, she is to make decisions. And so, because two are better than one, a married couple will be better off when they make decisions together - relying on the wisdom and giftings God has given to both of them.
I have seen the tacit “all women to most men” abuse in the church as girls are encouraged to practice for submission to a husband by pretending to like whatever the guys in the singles ministry do to “serve” them. Or when women are overlooked for meaningful ministry opportunities because men make all the decisions in church and they are partial to men doing everything “important.”
I have also seen the situations where an extreme focus on male leadership leaves men under overwhelming pressure because the wife is looking to them to make the decision for her when what would benefit them both is if they were to make the decision together. The situations where an authoritarian and charismatic churchman like Mark Driscoll presumes to tell every couple what is right for their family (men work 2 jobs and move your family to a trailer park so your wife can stay home and have babies, nevermind that you’ll never get a chance to SEE the babies because you are working all the time) instead of helping couples seek God’s guidance for their own family.
We need not make rules where God hasn’t. We need not prescribe exactly how selfless love and unselfish yielding should look in marriage or how it looks to prepare to give and receive in those ways.
Thank you for your words..i often struggle with this issue of women submitting, i tend to think that woemn should subm it in everything no matter if she is my wife or not. thank you fr the encouragement aswell as correction…
Thank you for this message. When my daughter’s first boyfriend came to ask my husband for permission to date her, my husband instructed him “to treat her as he would want another guy to treat your future wife if my daughter is not her.” In this way he reminded the young man that our daughter may not end up being his wife, but wife to another man, and that man has the right to a bride who is undefiled by him. I am thankful he heeded that instruction as they are not together today. He is engaged to another, and I pray that woman is grateful for my daughter’s purity because it kept her husband undefiled as well.
At the same time, we instructed our daughter about not having to submit to a man’s advances until he was actually her husband.
@Dei Chung, that is GREAT advice.
I understand what you are saying, and I largely agree with your premise and conclusions.
I would say that there is an element of difference in what I see compared to your view.
1 Tim 2 prohibits women from “teaching or having authority over men,” not just each woman’s husband. That is different than submission, I understand, but it is more general than the marriage relationship.
Also, I would offer that some of the confusion and abuse that has come from this issue is due to women leaving the protection and care of their husbands in their divinely given roles of wife and mother and venturing into or crossing over into the realm of men. In the OT, the father protected his daughter until marriage, and from there the husband was responsible to protect her.
God designed men lead throughout all of the Scriptures (though not all men lead in all areas): home, government, workplace, church. Mixing this up does not help the issue. Women should submit to their husbands - this is fully biblical - but they should not deviate from their God-given roles as women.
Thank you for writing your article. There is a good deal of confusion about gender roles in many facets, including that of women submitting to men in some general sense.
@Kevin Subra, I would largely agree with this assessment, but (and maybe I should have just re-read this again before commenting) I don’t think he really entered into the “women teaching in church” area of the conversation. I’d say it was a more specific call for women to stand up for biblical principles and understand that men are not intrinsically in a position of general authority over them, meaning they should not just do as a man says simply based on the fact that he is a man. Rather, that attitude is saved for spiritual leaders (husbands, pastors, God) and the authorities that God has ordained in the government.
@Kevin Subra,
Excellent points about Biblical gender roles. Men are providers and protectors. Women are nurturers. Men and women are different, thank God. Different does not even hint at superior or inferior. I suspect I will have to help my wife carry her crowns in heaven. Both men and women are happiest in the roles for which God designed them. Women pastors and women teaching men in the church is a gross violation of Biblical teaching.
Roy F. Dearmore, Th.B.,, M.D.
@Kevin Subra, I think you over-reach in your comment that women leaving “divinely given roles of wife and mother and venturing into or crossing over into the realm of men” contributes to the issue. You seem to imply that these are the only roles appropriate to women and that there is some Biblical sanction of what constitutes the “realm of men”. Are there verses you would cite to support these positions, especially the latter?
I would cite two verses that affirm a woman’s proper activity outside of those two roles: 1) Deborah the judge in Judges 4 who “held court”, “decided disputes”, and gave God’s word to army commanders; and 2) the virtuous woman, described in Proverbs 31, who “considers a field and buys it”, “sees that her trading is profitable”, and “makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes”. To me, these verses clearly show that a God-honoring woman — in addition to her roles as wife and mother — can take up roles in government, industry, and the military.
I believe the trick for both men and women is to put their family-oriented roles first — husband/wife, father/mother — with neither person neglecting their household responsibilities in preference to their career-oriented roles. This is another way that Madison Ave and Hollywood have subverted us all … I know, having been a consumer marketer and advertiser myself … but that is a subject for another whole blog.
Traditionally, women have been instructed to submit to men in general: in church, home, and society. More recent complementarians have restricted this to marriage and the church, and still others restrict it only to marriage. My guess is that the author takes the middle position.
I personally think all authority structures rooted in gender are a misunderstanding of the trajectory of biblical teaching on gender roles, and I think such structures are, at the end of the day, incompatible with the basic spiritual equality of men and women. I don’t want to get into an exegetical or theological debate here, but I want to point out that there is an egalitarian camp in this conversation, a camp that recognizes genuine, compatible differences between men and women, but which sees submission/authority structures as the wrong way to cache out those differences, whether in marriage, church, or society.
@Kyle Blanchette,
The problem is the witness of Scripture. Few who are complementarian are so out of some form of chauvinism; they just can’t get by the witness of Scripture. I can’t get by the witness of Scripture. Though I may say at a purely observational level, the apparent level of happiness and fulfilment in present relationships in this great egalitarian experiment does nothing to convince me of its case.
@Kyle Blanchette, The problem is the interpretation of scripture. The majority of the egalitarians I know consider the Bible to be their authority to justify their positions and, on the whole, their marriages are far better than most of the complementarian marriages that I witness. It is dangerous to generalise on these matters. I used to think that complementarian men and women were not chauvinistic, basing their beliefs on scripture alone but I have reluctantly concluded that they are as prone as anyone else to interpret scripture to fit their own cultural expectations. Scratch a little and the chauvinism is alive and kicking - it’s already raised its head in these comments when someone starts talking about gender differences eg women nurture and men protect - that’s a load of rubbish - both genders do this within a normal marriage. There are differences but often it is more about personality than gender. The truth is there are a lot of people who like women to fit into certain definitions and when they don’t then they are accused of not being biblical women - it’s an insidious form of control that is practised in many church circles because many men don’t like women around them who have a voice - they feel threatened. I don’t understand why but it’s a real problem. You may be unaware of it because you don’t have these issues - unfortunately a lot of men do. Just observe the way men interact with women sometime - the language that is used, the expectations etc. It’s there if you look for it. And, for the record - I do submit to my husband!
Unfortunately it isn’t just women who have had their understanding of roles perverted. I even have to fight my own natural desire to abdicate leadership every day in my marriage. Thanks for this encouragement.
This is an alert to men like myself who need to not put our sisters in Christ in situations where they are ever concerned about submitting to a man other than their dad or husband or if single and away from parents - to a church elder.
Russel,
Absolutely great & timely article. This could easily be the outline for an excellent book on the subject.
I’ll be getting it to my daughter & others.
Blessings,
mike
Dr. Moore,
This blog was a hard one to read, mostly because the conviction of topic was so strong. Thank you for being courageous enough to stand up for the truth of biblical relationships even if people look at you like a kangaroo in Manhattan. God bless you for desiring to help young, godly women and for challenging slacking, carnal men in the process.
i find it pretty remarkable that even after this great post, someone said part of the problem women have is because they have entered the “realm of men” (whatever that is) “unprotected”. this is especially remarkable due to the fact that when evangelicals teach about a godly example for women to follow, they default to proverbs 31 - in which a woman is engaged in several successful business ventures independent of her husband. I think this reveals the patriarchy that is endemic in modern evangelical culture that simply is not biblical, especially in a community in which, through union with Christ, “there is no male and female”.
@Tim p,
“proverbs 31 - in which a woman is engaged in several successful business ventures independent of her husband.”
Where do you find that she is acting independently? Could women even buy land independent of their husbands in ancient Israel? If anything, she is running these business for his sake, so he can be an elder at the gate. This is no different than when I, as the leader of my family, delegate certain household responsibilities to my wife. She runs a home based business, but she joyfully submits to my leadership (or delegation) even in that business.
@Tim p,
Thank you for pointing out the “patriarchy that is endemic in modern evangelical culture that simply is not biblical”
It saturates a large segment of the homeschooling movement in the evangelical church.
Godly men need to speak up.
Thank you for saying something.
Why do we always forget the most important part of this section of scripture? Husbands, love your wives as Christ loves the church. If we as men did this, then Hollywood and Madison Avene would not use sex for financial gain; because it would be looked upon with utter disgust. Instead, because we as men do not do our part, it creates the license for the world to do as they wish.
See the best article on this issue, by Jamal Jivanjee. Jamal made national news a couple of years ago when he helped a young Muslim woman leave her parent’s home. Her father had told her that she was “dead to him.” Jamal understands that the harder role is the husband’s role–we are to be as Christ to our wives. When husbands act in such a fashion, women naturally submit. They don’t need to be told to do so.
http://jamaljivanjee.com/2011/09/the-universal-enslavement-of-women/#more-725
Excellent point made that women are valuable as being made in God’s image. Great argument without male bashing.
Very good!
Hmmm. Largely agree. I think 1 Cor 11 may be a much broader category. In church, it is not simply husbands who take the lead but men.
@John Thomson, Yes, but not all men. Ordained men - but then all the members (men and women) must submit to them. I think Dr. Moore mentioned this.
@John Thomson, it is not simply husband nor all men, but rather ordained elders and pastors who take the lead. Dr. Moore mentions this. And all men, generally, must submit to the church leaders, just as women do.
@Jay,
The problem with your argument is your assumption that only ordained men are to lead/teach in the church. I don’t think you will find much biblical support for that idea. Indeed, we see the very opposite in 1Cor14. Thus I don’t think you can escape that in the church women also submit in a more general sense to unordained men, but never the other way round.
@Henry, Your assumption that any man can exercise authority over any women is the FALSE assumption here. When it comes to ordained men, all men and all women who belong to that church submit to those ordained elders/pastors. Even if some regular Joe decides to teach Sunday School, he must do so only under the approval of his leaders and is subject to submission to the leaders of the church. If a woman is sitting in regular Joe’s Sunday School class, she is not bound to submit to him. Of course she should listen to him respectfully and seek to learn. But he does not hold the position of authority that requires her to submit directly to him.
@John Thomson,
Thank you for making this point, I was wondering about the same thing. Scripture says more than “women should only submit to husbands” in Corinthians.
However gender roles are twisted in general life and in church, and submission to society’s views of beauty is just wrong. Moore did so well writing on these things.
Thanks Dr. Moore! I have to admit, I was shocked when I saw the headline followed by your name over on Challies’ blog. I thought, “Are Dr. Moore and Tim having some sort of prank war?!” Praise God for your clarification, though! I have veered too far toward the way of submission to all men (being unmarried), and am finding my way back to God’s actual command–your post is very helpful in that. Although the “courtship movement” brought up some excellent points and concepts to consider, I suspect it (or my misunderstanding of it) also had a large role to play in some of my current struggles with learning to pursue contentment in Christ alone as a single woman and waiting joyfully on the Lord in this matter.
You forgot to remind slaves to obey their masters.
@Rachel H. Evans,
Which slaves? Is anyone here a slave?
If slavery were legal today, then I agree, we should obey the Apostle Paul and submit to our masters (as long as we are not being asked to sin).
@Rachel H. Evans,
Maybe you’re confused by the NIV translation of 1 Pet. 3:8 “like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master”?
@Rachel H. Evans, Gotta love this, was tickled to see your reply. You sure know how to keep it interesting! Headed over to your blog to see if you have any rebuttal to Moore’s. I’m sure you’re completely serious but I must admit (yes even as a black woman) I laughed and clapped my hands just a bit…
Nicely put, Dr. Moore, but I think there’s an interesting detail you left out and could have tied in: how about wives submitting to their husbands via head covering in church (I Cor. 11), the most oft-ignored instruction in all of Scripture (next to the Creation Mandate, of course, often misinterpreted as the Vasectomy Mandate…)
In I Cor. 11 the head covering was tied to the creation order, much like the Apostles instruction that women should not be in teaching elder roles over men in churches, so why does this rule so often go ignored? Can you talk about Biblical submission without addressing the covering?
@LD, You have to keep reading, keeping the context in mind and ask why? It tells us, “But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.” This I do not think is an issue we face today.
But even so, the Mary/Herod connection is weak. It makes it sound like Mary was personally summoned alone to Herod’s court and refused to “submit” to what he wanted her to do. By the time Herod sent out the decree, Joseph was in charge of protecting the family, and he was the one “refusing to submit.” Besides, it wasn’t exactly a hard choice. “Hmmm, gee, so some psycho wants to murder our baby boy. Honey, what do you think, should we submit or not?”
Fantastic article. If you do write a book on it (please do!) i will buy several copies for the younger women I know. oh, and one for me, too!
Hi Dr. Moore. As I find your clarity of the issue of the female submission to the male honest and valid and Biblical, do you have opinions when the male might submit to the woman, or in your verbiage, the husband submitting to the wife? Is that another blog post?
If you do write a book, it would be helpful if you distinguished between women submitting to men’s desires (e.g. Madison Ave, Hollywood, boyfriends, etc) and Christian women (both married and unmarried) confused about submission to men in general (in the workplace, in the church, etc.). Your blog post blurred the two a bit.
Thanks for at least broaching the subject!
I understand what you are saying but, from the tone of your article, it sounds like you believe there are hordes of women out there who are exploited because they have a desire to submit to the men in their lives. While I am sure it happens, I believe it’s the exception rather than the rule. For example, I don’t think a young Christian woman pressured to have sex before marriage gives in because she believes the Bible says that she should submit to men, even when they want her to do something she knows is a sin. I think she gives in because she believes this guy really loves her and they will likely end up married anyway and maybe deep down inside she really wants to, just a little. It’s still tragic but I don’t think we can blame it on a failure to properly interpret Ephesians 5:22.
The main point of your article is one that I heartily agree with. The Lord is our primary authority, our submission to anyone or anything should be consistent with our submission to God and his word.
@Jeremy Sheffel, Yes, exactly! In addition to what you’ve touched on, i would also like to speak on the issue of the waitresses and the porn stars. Seducing has little to do with the issue of submission; it has to do with power. The ability to seduce a man stems from the desire to rule over him. These women are exploiting the men’s sexual desires for their own gain. Granted, they are misguided and sadly dont realize the cost they are paying but they are motivated by something other than the desire to submit. The desire to be worshipped and feel powerful perhaps, but not so much the desire to submit. I realize this cause wasn’t explicit but it was suggested.
There is a good thesis here but it is muddled with too many far reaching references.
Three quick points:
When discussing the issue of submission, people too oft forget Eph. 5:21 which commands ALL believers to “submit to each other” married or not, man or woman. It is within this context that men are told to love and women are told to respect.
Secondly, the issue of submission is always between you and the Lord “As unto the Lord” and has to do with the office being held and not the person’s perceived worthiness. It is interesting to note that the commands are always directed To the person who chooses to obey. For example, “HUSBANDS, love your wives…” not “WIVES make sure your husbands love you.” God has given you a responsibility to take care of what you are responsible for.
Lastly, it seems to me the beautiful picture of submisssion is being downgraded as a simple matter of faithfulness. Submission means to “put yourself under”, “consider others better than yourself”, not just avoiding adultery.
Dr Moore,
The problem with your post is that you are in the tricky position of having to explain why an unmarried woman cannot be a pastor. If the only man she ever has to submit to is a husband, then there is no reason why an unmarried woman cannot be in authority over men.
You are flattening things to much in this post.
In 1Cor11, 1Cor14 and 1Tim2:12 you see submission of women to men generally. And of course this is not exactly the same as how she submits to her husband. But there is a general deference, a general submission…
@Henry, No. Dr. Moore states that women submit to the leaders (who are men) in authority in their church.
Very well articulated! The Church has really messed up on this issue in the recent and historical past. Sadly, submission has often been a club used by males to control females and the backlash has alienated many modern women to the truth of Scripture. (The abuses of power on this issue have resulted in wrong conclusions like: submission is hurting women and is wrong… Paul really was wrong when he wrote this… this could not be inspired by God… is the Bible all the inspired word of God?)
I have often observed over the years that many Christian women who have been manipulated by spouses and the body of Christ in the name of submission have become disheartened after many years, (left their husbands in frustration) and become disillusioned with Christianity
The word “submission” is such polarizing term in our culture today - even in the church. It is difficult to discuss such a hot topic in a short post, but you did a great job of leading us down the path toward your point that society today really hasn’t done women any favors. And the church has done no better, perhaps even worse than society in modeling godly relationships. We do need to remember that women are called to submit to their husbands, but men are called to sacrifice for their wives. Neither is easy, but if we are working together in “oneness” and unity of purpose, married life is so much better. We need to stop arguing over terminology and work together; as husband and wife and the “church.” Are we not serving the same God - a God of balance and order? Thank you for a thought provoking, balanced article.
Lot of good points made on this topic. I agree that wives should submit to their own husbands as unto the Lord; as Eph. 5:22-24 indicates. Also that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the Church…as Eph.5:25-33 indicates. It is also easier for a wife to submit to their husband when he actually loves her as Christ loved the Church.
However, regardless of whether or not a husband loves his wife as Christ loved the Church, she still is commanded to submit to her husband. We read in 1 Peter 3:1-2 “Wives, likewise, be submissive to their own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.”
The bottom line is as Christians whether we are male or female, married or single. We are called to find out what Scripture says on a given topic and obey it.
It apears some don’t understand what the Bible means by submission when it comes to women submitting to their own husbands.
It should be clear that women should not submit to their husbands when he is telling her to do something against the law, immoral, or otherwise cause her to sin.
I think 1 Peter 3:1-6 is helpful here.
Unfortunately, Moore seems to cherry pick salient texts. His conspicuous lack of attention to the all-important 1 Cor. 11, 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2:12 leaves THIS reader (and others here in the comments section) unsatisfied with Moore’s position. He never gets to the actual root of this issue: that is, WHY male headship at all? (Identifying a particular woman’s “head” is a secondary issue.) I think its hard to really understand role distinctions if the issues of Creation order and the doctrine of the Trinity are not addressed. But if these issues are properly understood, then I think you must conclude that the New Testament advocates for a wider view on role distinctions (i.e., female submission and male headship), than what Moore is arguing for. In short, I am in agreement with Moore’s critics (here in the comments) that God desires a more general submission of women to men - that the principle applies to spheres beyond the marriage covenant. This is not to say that God expects all acts of submission to look the same, but I don’t think you can escape the conclusion that there is a principle of Creation order involved. And that principle applies inside and outside the home and church. God was not issuing a promise of blessing when he warned Israel that they would be ruled by children and women (Isa. 3; esp. v. 4 & 12). While Deborah (Ju 4) is invariably the poster child for the egalitarian position, Deborah herself would have eschewed the dubious honor (And I think it could be argued from the text that she actually DID. Her ministry brought shame upon the men of Israel. It was not a badge of honor for which they were to be commended by those mean, stifling and chauvinistic nations surrounding them. Further, it cannot be ignored that the whole incident takes place in the book/time of the Judges! Not exactly the high point of Israel’s spiritual or moral history.) Deborah’s prophecy in 4:9 regarding Sisera’s eventual death at the hand of (again) a woman (Jael) underscores the impropriety of even THAT situation. (And, I think, needs to be considered in the debate on the propriety of women in the military.) This was not an honorable death for Sisera. The evangelical feminist must answer the question: Why not? I think the Bible consistently presents the answer as being rooted NOT in cultural patriarchy, and much less in sinful chauvinism, but in the Trinity itself and the Creation order. (Even if you raise the issue of cultural patriarchy, you’ve must push the questions back even further. From whence comes this patriarchal culture?) If Moore wants us all to adopt his view, he will have to deal head-on with these important texts and the theology they seem to communicate. He cannot side-step them in the hope that no one will notice. Cuz we do.
BTW - I do not think Moore is an evangelical feminist. Nor do I think the criticisms I’ve raised are unknown to him. My point is only that he has failed to convince me of the limited scope of female submission in light of other important texts - texts that “unlimited scopers” have long raised in order to demonstrate their own position. His point could be better established if he were to show us how our take on these other passages (and the corresponding theology we derive from them) is off.
When then is it that women are more likely to divorce there husbands than vice versa? (The research seems to suggest that one of the causes is that family courts and child support laws favor women rather than the reverse).
While I appreciate the truth and support of this article, I think the title and the article need to be re-written => to men; as in Men, Stop forcing women to Submit. So many women have this truth, it’s IN us, we know this truth but it’s hard to stand up to the truth when you are being beaten down, whether by words or fists. However many men still don’t get it. Once again THE FOCUS IS ON WOMEN WHO ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG (submitting to men) when the onus should be on men to stop demanding and enforcing it. Please will someone hold the men accountable for their attitudes, their behaviors, their domination and control?
No wonder women fight back.
I’ve known this for years. However… it’s a well known fact this is, as the article states, a patriarchal society. Whether women have participated in creating this, the fact is, patriarchy is taught, mis-taught, in the church and the IC (institutional church) has bred generations of women who submit. It’s a bit too late to try and turn the tide. If a woman stands up for what is right for her, for others or just for what is right and true, today she is still labelled a trouble-maker. She could be beaten, she could be fired, she could be raped. There are many ways man uses against women to shut us up and make us submit.
We don’t wear a burka as do the women of Muslim countries, but we are in just as much bondage as they are. The whole sexual revolution and feminist movements have been a mere band-aid solution, a mere blast of bravado which has left us worse than before. At least back then women were more cherished and cared about, now the bondage is far more subtle and far more rampant. Change comes from knowing Who created and loves us. Change comes as we submit to truth. But, sad to say, change will not happen unless men submit to the Truth and take ownership of the fact the patriarchal society has filled their need to dominate. Until men repent of THAT, women don’t stand a chance of being honored and respected as their equals. Meanwhile women wait for their Saviour to return and set us free physically as He did when He came the first time and set us free spiritually.
If every Christian truth will have with it two equal and opposite errors, it is not hard to see why and how feminism developed in the way it did. My take is that much of it was a reaction to a patriarchy which had gone very wrong indeed; and there are aspects of the past (cf. Eccl 7:10) which we would not want to go back to anyway.
Here’s one aspect of the discussion which needs more teasing out, though - where do Christian single women, with no real prospect of a husband, fit into your ’submission model’?
So well said and scriptural. Most fathers are sadly ignorant of this truth, and are consequently throwing their daughters and wives to the dogs. The wife in the work place puts her in a position of submitting to men rather than her husband.
This is an incredible article, I write to young men, and know many that do not understand this concept of not being someone who must be submitted to until marriage. I myself misunderstood it not too long ago. More people need to read good solid and true theological writing like this one!
-LBC
I myself misunderstood it not too long ago. More people need to read good solid and true theological writing like this one!
Well dangit. I got all excited about this post and read line by line with a thrill in my heart.
And then I got to the save-yourself-for-submission-to-your-husband part. This is still a patriarchal lens over the beauty of mutuality and otherliness that husbands and wives are commended in scripture.
Telling women to submit to their husbands is to tell a woman to detach from her personal sovereignty and give responsibility for her life to another. This is what we do with our children. And our pets. Women are not children nor pets.
Women are fully endowed with the same moral, spiritual and authoritative characteristics that make her equal with men, including her husband. Equal partners have no ranking with one another, but mutually submit and defer to the other.
@Pam Hogeweide,
Pam,
I detect in your post a little bit of anger. Have you been abused by men who have misused their authority?
I can assure you that men who misuse their authority, have clearly misunderstood God’s command to them to love their wives as Christ loved the Church.
I noticed that you appealed to the emotions, rather than Scripture itself. I am assuming that you are a Christian, so I would ask that you would study Scripture first before letting your emotion dictate your understanding.
As Christians we are to submit to Scripture, regardless of whether or not we like it. In my case, there have been times when I have read something in Scripture and was convinced after studying it that it was saying something that I actually didn’t like. I reluctantly submitted to it and later was glad I did; because I began to realize that what made me dislike that part of Scripture was that I was looking at the matter through my own perspective, rather than by the perspective of God.
I must also say that women are equal to men. The difference however, is a matter of roles (see Eph. 5:22-34). Many people think that if the roles of men and women are different, then it makes them un-equal. When in actuality nothing could be further from the truth.
Even in the Trinity, the roles of each member of the Trinity are different; yet they are equally God. A few examples of Jesus submitting to the Father are found in John 5:30 & and in Jesus prayer in Luke 22:42 in Jesus prayer to the Father.
I ask you then, if it is true that Jesus submitted to the Father and He was not inferior to the Father. Why then, would it make a wife inferior to her husband if she submits to him?
My husband and I went to marriage counseling recently and it was very beneficial. One incident stood out for me. In the getting to know us session, the counselor asked us some good and challenging questions. He was a kind and loving brother in Christ who clearly had a heart for marriage and for the Lord. He began the invitation to answer the first few questions he had for us thusly:
“Ok, let me ask you, [my husband], to go first because God made man first and you know, women….second.”
I rolled my eyes. Inwardly!! On the outside, I smiled sweetly. My husband, bless him, replied with “Oh that’s fine, I’d like my wife to go first because, you know, ladies first.” HAHA…..I have to laugh because honestly, I had no issues with it. It matters little to me that the counselor’s idea of submission to my husband extended all the way to women submitting to men in general, because they were created second after men. My husband was more riled up by it in comparison and told me after that he felt it was an insult to me, his wife. I shrugged it off and told my hubby that it only matters to me what he thought of me because ultimately, I go home with him at the end of the day =)
Thank you for this post =)
This is well written and makes many concise points, however do you think it could be trying too hard to fix a surface problem when the real problem actually lies in the heart? I agree with most of the content, especially that concerning culture, but it seems to me it’s leaving out the real solution to this mindset and problem, at least in a Christ-centered relationship. If both the husband and wife are completely submitting to God and Christ really is the focal point binding them as one, then the issue can not be about an act of submission to a husband or submitting to any person at all, but only a deeper, truer submission to God. The well known triangle illustration is a key example of this, in which the husband and wife are at the two bottom points and God is in the middle and at no surprise, the top. As the two each submit more and more of themselves to God, they grow closer to each other at an outward glance as well as a much deeper, Spirit led level. This leaves no room for a submission issue as each is called to submit completely to God. In a spiritual sense however, the woman IS called to a “Godly deference” as many other critics have established. If you disagree, take a look at the much avoided yet ever important topic of Spiritual discipline carried out among believers in the New Testament church as well as relations between members of the body of Christ. It is a black and white statement that men AND husbands in a body of Christ, as well as in the sanctified covenant of marriage, are to be over the woman in the area of spiritual reproof. This is most certainly not inferring women cannot keep men accountable but is only relating to actual discipline amounting from a spiritual issue.
Dr. Moore,
I truly appreciate and am deeply sympathetic to what you are trying to do here. But, I think you’ve pushed the complementarian logic to its breaking point (as some of your commenters above seem to realize).
As I see it, you can’t argue (at least, not well or consistently) for a very narrow reading of female submission from Eph 5:21-33, but then turn around and argue for all women being barred from positions of church authority (pastors, elders, etc) based on a very broad reading of 1 Tim 2:11-15 (where you and other complementarians believe that women, in general, are understood to be prevented from “exercising authority” over men, in general). I’m sorry, but I just don’t think it works. Certainly, Eph 5:21ff. should be understood to mean that women are only expected to submit to their own husbands. But, the corollary logic of “male headship” doctrine in the church works on the basis that women (as a group) are not allowed to exercise authority over men (as a group). This has logical implications (that complementarians often want to avoid) for the interaction of women and men beyond the home and the church. Indeed, as we all know, the boundaries of these “spheres” are very porous and infinitely overlapping. Where does “the church” end and “the world” begin? Where does “the home” end and “the church” begin? And, if Christ is Lord of all, they why wouldn’t God’s ordained gender roles for women and men function in all areas of life?
Again, I’m deeply sympathetic to your overall point. And, as an evangelical feminist, I fully agree with your rejection of “pagan patriarchy” and its bitter, oppressive fruit for women. But, I think your logic in this post is faulty and the complementarian position you try to hold together within it ultimately unsustainable.
Grace and peace,
Emily
BRAVO! SOOO well written..espec. the part about women’s “Vaporous Beauty”…as a married woman of 30+ yrs, and the mom of 4 boys (&lotsa noise!) I applaud your wisdom and talented writing. I never knew re being submissive JUST to my hubby, and not to men in society (esp. the ones that degrade women)…I have yet to walk by the TV and not see a ‘barbie-doll’ figure woman with CLEAVAGE showing…even last night on “Fred Clause” or something like that Santa’s helper’s cleavage was distracting…I mean REALLY, in the North Pole surrounded w/ elves, and watched by millions of kids? Tis not necess…
I’ll put my soapbox away and say you made my day! I’ve just started to blog so I’ll try to link to you…but I’m a ‘tech-wreck!” and we’ll see how it goes! In Jesus, Cathleen
“Indeed, a primary problem in our culture and in our churches isn’t that women aren’t submissive enough to men, but instead that they are far too submissive.”
I am a college student receiving alot of crap from my current church because I am friends with boys. They think I shouldn’t be hanging out with just guys, if I am the only girl present. I disagree because the guys are my friends. This church likes to stress make and female roles. I guess my question is: How are the women of this culture “far too submissive?”
Definitely fascinating content articles. I enjoyed reading through it.
Nice information gived by you.
I think this is interesting and do not see posted often. This is great information.
Whether it is the duty of a slave to serve their master, the duty of a wife to obey her husband, in Christ, the duty of the husband to seek and serve Christ, in himself, the duty of any children to obey their parents, the duty of parents to not vex their children, what I want to see publicly expressed is the duties of a good master and leader has, so that good slave owners, leaders, wives, husbands, parents etc right down the line can publicly prove their worth in a viable and virtuous contract, with penalty clauses which have good strong moral reasoning behind them should they fall away from the standard they should be bearing in Christ.
There is mention here of girls performing oral sex on boyfriends. To be worthy of Christ all men should be abstaining from all experience, in thought word and deed, of sex until they marry and they should only have sex with the person they marry. Men, collectively, should be working far more effectively than they are at present at resisting and reducing the alure of advertising and internet pornography than women, because advertising and pornography disempower self control in men [as leaders] far more than they warped the expression of the sexuality of women, which I see as a symptom of men’s collective weakness.
If enough young men collectively and publicly said ‘no’ to all pornography and campaigned for restrictions to sexual expression in advertising then women would find themselves a lot less harassed. Needless to say an asexual mixed social space is a basic requirement for such a resistance to sexualisation, and seeing each other as sexualised consumer goods. It is a matter of resetting personal boundaries with each other for improved self control.
I say young men, they are the men who are single and at their most hormonal, and hormones are real and part of the way humans are made. Self control vs hormones is the crux of the matter.
Thank you so much for writing this! We are lacking so much clarity in this area and your article brings much needed wisdom and insight into this discussion. Whether people admit it or not, this topic has been thoroughly confused and convoluted by Christians and non-Christians alike.
Thank you for your perspective.