Joan or John? My Answer: Part Five
— Friday, May 29th, 2009 —
The past several posts have looked at a question I posed to a group of seminary students in a Christian ethics class. Read the question here, and the previous four posts (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4).
Since I posted the question about John/Joan, I’ve had two responses. Some Christians have said things along the lines of, “I’m glad I’m not in your ethics class! That question is hard!” Others though have said, “You know, that very situation happened in my church.”
We’re going to have more and more so-called “transgendered” persons in American society as the culture around us changes. A woman in my congregation told me the other day she was asked when giving blood, “What gender were you at birth?”
Now, we could always bemoan this, and talk about how American culture is slouching toward Gomorrah. We should hope, if there are transgendered persons in the cities and towns and villages around us, that we will see them in our church pews. And we should pray, feverishly, that they will hear the gospel we’re preaching as good news for them.
This doesn’t mean that we create a new “transgendered” Sunday school class. That’s not good news at all; anymore than a “coveters” Sunday school class would be good for me! A gospel church, though, is a church that says whatever you’re running from or running to, Jesus offers you life. As long as you’re alive, it is not too late for you to find new life in Christ. Jesus loves sinners, and we do too.
You see, the scenario about “Joan” isn’t really all that hypothetical. Chances are in your town right now, there are people in that situation. Why don’t they show up in our churches? Is it because they doubt if our gospel is really addressed to them? Is it because we doubt it too?
If Joan comes to your church this Sunday and hears the gospel, if “she” decides to throw away everything “she” knows and follow Christ, will your church be there to love him, and to show him how to stop pretending and to fight his way toward what he was created to be? Maybe it would take a Joan at the altar call to make us question whether we really believe what we say and what we sing. Is there really power, wonder-working power, in the blood of the Lamb? Is our gospel really good news for prodigal sons, even for sons so lost they once thought they were daughters?
13 Responses to “Joan or John? My Answer: Part Five”
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- Kiwi and an Emu.
- Joan Or John? What If a Transgendered Person Comes to Christ? In Your Church? :: Exodus International Blog
Dr. Moore,
I would approach it from the perspective of “Who made you God”.
In life we see everything from Siamese twins to epilepsy cured my appropriate surgery. Why do you presume that a person’s gender is not such a physical mistake of nature?
Do I know anyone in this condition? Tragically so. A friend shortly after birth was experiencing physical suffering. X-rays and such revealed the confusion of gender in the mixing of gender plumbing. The doctors tell the parents they must choose what they want the child to be. They have already told their friends that the child is a girl. So she was surgically made a girl.
By her teen years my friend knows that in her heart she is a man. She detests being a woman. Her features are manly as are her muscles, bearing, walk and tendencies.
I admit this may not be the exact scenario you had in mind, but the principle in fact is. We do not think for a moment that we are going against what God created when we surgically cure other physical alimentes but we do if it pertains to sex assignment. I merely suggest that mistakes of nature pertaining may be corrected whether the mistakes be having three legs or mistaken gender.
Sincerely
John
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@John D. Tilson,
I don’t understand why you would ask “who made (Russ Moore) God?” Dr. Moore has offered a compassionate and Christ-exalting response to the situation recognized by the subject Joan/John, i.e., having rejected God’s gender assignment. I suspect Dr. Moore’s counsel would have been different if Joan/John was arguing your point, that (s)he had simply corrected a mistake God made in the womb; although I suspect that counsel would be just as compassionate and Christ-exalting. But the very fact that Joan/John is experiencing repentance over the rebellion make your assertion pointless, I think.
@John D. Tilson,
I surrender! I misread a couple lines which caused me to assume what I shouldn’t have. Apologies.
I still wonder what the answer would be if John/Joan were not feeling repentance over the transgender operation. There will be those you know. In which case you will have to deal with my original argument.
I will try try to read more carefully in the future. Thank you Bob!
John
@John D. Tilson, I think your situation is very different. A hermaphrodite, like a person born with an extra limb, is someone who is definitely born with a physical flaw. And you’re correct, sometimes that flaw is corrected prematurely, because in some cases assigning a gender at birth for a child born with that condition really comes down to guesswork. Many born hermaphrodites do feel later in life that the gender they were assigned was the wrong one, and they often have the hormone levels and internal genitalia to prove it.
In fact, Lili Elbe (1882-1931), who is often held up by transgendered activists as the first person to undergo sex reassignment surgery, was found to have rudimentary ovaries and other female organs during her autopsy after her death. So when she said she felt like a woman inside, she was correct. That situation is very different, I think, from the one Dr. Moore brought up.
Surely it is not John’s fault that he felt like a woman. We live in a fallen world and our minds and hearts are plagued by sin. The solution to our psychological problems, though, is not to change what God has created to suit our whims, but to seek His will no matter how difficult it is. I can relate that to my own struggles with homosexuality. Relationships with men feel totally natural to me and being celibate is very difficult, and support from Christians is unfortunately often hard to find. But the fact of the matter remains that what God has deemed sin is sin. I can’t take matters into my own hands and try to explain away the clear teachings of Scripture. If I did, or someone like John did, what would stop everyone from doing that?
Dr. Moore,
Your answer to this very difficult question was very helpful. We need theologians addressing new issues such as these. I have another difficult question that I was wondering if you could address. What about people who are born with both male and female reproductive organs? I have had multiple people ask me this question, and, frankly, I’m at a loss as to how to deal with it. How would you answer this question? I know you’re a busy man, but if you could address this I think it would be very helpful to a lot of us who are trying to give answers to the difficult points non-believers are raising. Thank you.
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What a powerful story this was, just in the fact of how you related it to our sinful state in general. It is so comforting to know Jesus came to die for all of our sin and all sin is evil and vile.
Dr. Moore, keep on speaking to our hearts. We as sinners so need to hear the Gospel truth. I am so thankful for how God is working in your life and mine.
I will pray for your ministry after I send this.
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How would pastor counsel John should he decide to enter a romantic relationship with a woman?
Is the woman in sin? Is John to abstain for the rest of his life?
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@Taylor, one of the reasons ex-gay men and women are very cautious about getting married is because many times, such marriages are rushed into and the physical chemistry is not present, and the marriage becomes sexless, which then can lead to a wide variety of sins (think Ted Haggard). And this is a situation where all the “parts” in both spouses are complimentary and working. Ex-gays can and do have very fulfilling marriages, but it’s a situation that requires a lot of patience, honesty, understanding, and in many cases godly counseling from a pastor and therapist.
Now, in that situation, the only hindrance is one person’s past lifestyle and psychological attractions to the same sex. In John’s situation, there would not only likely be that, but also the fact that his physical body has been changed surgically to be that of a female’s. Stopping taking the hormones would likely cause his breasts to reduce in size or disappear (many transgendered individuals don’t have to get implants) and his prior masculine frame to re-develop, but his genitalia would still be that of a woman.
Now I’ll take it for granted that most Christians see romantic relationships as preludes to marriage. If John married a woman, would their marriage be able to be sexually fulfilled as all marriages are supposed to be? In my mind, because of John’s past errors, his genitalia is now that of a woman’s, as his wife’s would be. The only way both parties could satisfy each other would be to essentially have the kind of sex that lesbians have…. and I’m not sure that just because John is a man spiritually that that kind of sex should be allowed. But I’m willing to hear others’ opinion on this.
Dr. Moore,
This is exactly why I admire and appreciate you so much. Such a beautiful series of posts.
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Brother, thank you for your series and your clear, biblical thinking. It is very encouraging to see the gospel at the heart of your counsel. I am so thankful that students are learning this from you.
Yours by divine mercy,
db
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Dr. Moore,
I give glory to my Father in heaven for your thoughtfulness in these posts. I would like to know if you are going to address the breast augmentation and dating issues?
I light of those issues, do you believe there is a wise limit to the extent we think about hypothetical situations? Or should we think until we find the fear wall? By which I mean where we are unable to answer any question because we are always asking what if.
Thank you again for these post. May God use them to exalt Jesus Christ and allow others to receive his great gift of salvation.
P.S. - You may consider updating your posts to make it easier to navigate through them for those who would rather just read it on the web. Thank you for the PDF version though.
In Christ by Grace,
Matt Taylor
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